UMLChina第16期专家交流实录

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scottambler进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:02)
sprighu对大家说: test(2002/03/11 10:02)
fly_sky对大家说: hello ,good morning(2002/03/11 10:02)
老满进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:02)
higoals进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:03)
umlchina对大家说: welcome(2002/03/11 10:03)
415918对大家说: 我有个建议，大家应该集中几个问题，深入讨论(2002/03/11 10:03)
gigix对scottambler说: Hello!(2002/03/11 10:03)
scottambler对大家说: Hello(2002/03/11 10:03)
415918对大家说: 不要太分散了(2002/03/11 10:03)
gigix对scottambler说: I'm a fan of Agile Modeling(2002/03/11 10:03)
scottambler对gigix说: Thanks, me too! ;-)(2002/03/11 10:03)
gigix对scottambler说: Would you please introduce it to our Chinese friends?(2002/03/11 10:03)
老满微笑着对大家说: Hello!(2002/03/11 10:03)
zengkui进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:04)
fly_sky进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:04)
scottambler对gigix说: Agile Modeling (AM), is a practices based modeling methodology.(2002/03/11 10:04)
gigix对大家说: (Everybody, about Agile Modeling, please see www.agilemodeling.com or www.agilechina.org)(2002/03/11 10:04)
scottambler对gigix说: The URL is www.agilemodeling.com(2002/03/11 10:04)
neo_chen进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:04)
killsun对umlchina说: when to begin?(2002/03/11 10:04)
415918对大家说: hello,scott(2002/03/11 10:04)
scottambler对415918说: hello(2002/03/11 10:04)
jay@进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:05)
lzhihua对scottambler说: nice to meet you mr.ambler(2002/03/11 10:05)
gigix对scottambler说: Why you call AM a "modeling methodology"? Isn't is a whole process?(2002/03/11 10:05)
415918对大家说: i read some your great articles about EJB such as mastering EJB2,what do you think about EJB?(2002/03/11 10:05)
scottambler对lzhihua说: Thanks. Nice to meet all of you.(2002/03/11 10:05)
scottambler对415918说: AM is not a whole process, it just focuses on modeling and documentation.(2002/03/11 10:06)
simaetin进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:06)
scottambler对415918说: I think EJB is a great technology.(2002/03/11 10:06)
gigix对scottambler说: And what's about UML in AM?(2002/03/11 10:06)
scottambler对gigix说: The UML defines several artifacts that you can create, if it makes sense, when taking an AM approach. You can use AM with or without UML artifacts(2002/03/11 10:07)
colinshen进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:07)
scottambler对gigix说: I've written an essay about a realistic view of UML at www.agilemodeling.com/essays.htm(2002/03/11 10:07)
davidqql进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:08)
cber进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:08)
cliffxiao进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:08)
415918对scottambler说: but in china there are so many failed projects using EJB,some vendors apply EJB to develop an ERP,but...(2002/03/11 10:08)
gigix对scottambler说: If without UML, which modeling language you select?(2002/03/11 10:08)
sliuhao进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:08)
scottambler对415918说: Why are the projects failing?(2002/03/11 10:08)
ying_mo进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:08)
scottambler对gigix说: You can do data modeling with AM, for example. Structured projects using COBOL might want to use data flow diagrams, data models, and structure charts.(2002/03/11 10:09)
415918对scottambler说: the poor performance(2002/03/11 10:09)
scottambler对415918说: where is the poor performance coming from? Persistence problems?(2002/03/11 10:09)
gigix对scottambler说: Then AM is not a pure OO methodology, right?(2002/03/11 10:09)
davidqql对大家说: Is there any smart way for OOAD with UML, I don't like RUP(2002/03/11 10:10)
scottambler对gigix说: AM isn't a pure OO methodology although most people will use it with OO and component-based techniques.(2002/03/11 10:10)
scottambler对gigix说: I think that AM is a smart way to work with the UML and other artifacts. ;-)(2002/03/11 10:10)
gigix对scottambler说: How do you think about agile methodologies? What's the case they fit best?(2002/03/11 10:10)
415918对scottambler说: yes,it is(2002/03/11 10:10)
scottambler对gigix说: Agile methods should be used when the requirements aren't well known and likely to change over time, when you have a reasonably small team, and have access to your users.(2002/03/11 10:11)
davidqql对scottambler说: How can we review a model, is there any automatic method?(2002/03/11 10:12)
jay@对scottambler说: hi!Mr.Scott(2002/03/11 10:12)
scottambler对415918说: Are the persistence performance problems because of EJB, or because of bad database design?(2002/03/11 10:12)
scottambler对davidqql说: I don't know of any way to automatically review a model. I'm putting together design style guidelines at www.modelingstyle.info that a vendor could automate I guess.(2002/03/11 10:12)
scottambler对davidqql说: but that would be just style checking. Not sure what the value would be.(2002/03/11 10:13)
davidqql对scottambler说: Do you write any article about agile mothodlogy?(2002/03/11 10:13)
scottambler对davidqql说: I write a column for SD magazine, www.sdmagazine.com, that focuses on agile development.(2002/03/11 10:13)
ying_mo对scottambler说: i think in some cases monumental method may be also efficient, do you think so?(2002/03/11 10:13)
scottambler对davidqql说: I also post a fair bit of material at www.agilemodeling.com(2002/03/11 10:13)
scottambler对ying_mo说: Monumental method? What do you mean by that?(2002/03/11 10:14)
gigix对大家说: And the Chinese website is http://www.agilechina.org(2002/03/11 10:14)
scottambler对ying_mo说: RUP?(2002/03/11 10:14)
415918对scottambler说: i think there are problems in database design and misuse of EJB(2002/03/11 10:14)
scottambler对gigix说: Yes, thanks for pointing that out.(2002/03/11 10:14)
ying_mo对scottambler说: i mean the original software develop methodology(2002/03/11 10:15)
davidqql对scottambler说: Thanks, I know the style will affect the model, but as you know, the main problem on modeling is to find a way to check it. Are there some rules for such issue?(2002/03/11 10:15)
scottambler对415918说: The object folks and the data folks need to work together. That's often a leading cause of failure when they don't. I've written a fair bit about this at www.sdmagazine(2002/03/11 10:15)
scottambler对415918说: .com and at www.ambysoft.com/mappingObjects.html(2002/03/11 10:15)
simaetin对scottambler说: I guess ying_mo means classic method(2002/03/11 10:15)
ying_mo对scottambler说: yes(2002/03/11 10:16)
notyy进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:16)
scottambler对davidqql说: I don't know of any. Best way to reveiw a model is to get several people together and work through it. Better yet, have several people create it in the first place,(2002/03/11 10:16)
scottambler对davidqql说: less chance of a mistake that way.(2002/03/11 10:16)
normanwu进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:17)
scottambler对simaetin说: Yes, class methods can work well too when they're applied effectively. Often they aren;t though, which is a problem.(2002/03/11 10:17)
scottambler对simaetin说: Oops, I meant classic methods. ;-)(2002/03/11 10:17)
dejol进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:17)
415918对scottambler说: i have download your whole website(2002/03/11 10:18)
simaetin对scottambler说: In the discussion of reviewing the designed model, how to solve the conflict if the both sides are drived by "sense"?(2002/03/11 10:18)
scottambler对simaetin说: Many projects following classic methods run into trouble when they take too serial of an approach. It doesn't allow for feedback. AM won't work in situations like that.(2002/03/11 10:18)
lzhihua对scottambler说: do you think use case is a good way to collected the requirement?(2002/03/11 10:18)
myou进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:18)
davidqql微笑着对gigix说: I remember that you translate a book, sorry, i forget the name.(2002/03/11 10:18)
scottambler对simaetin说: Guess they just have to talk about it and work it out.(2002/03/11 10:18)
415918对scottambler说: is there successful ERP or CRM case using EJB in Canada or US?(2002/03/11 10:19)
scottambler对lzhihua说: Use cases work very well for usage requirements but not so well for other requirements. They're one part of the overall picture. This is why AM tells you to work with(2002/03/11 10:19)
scottambler对lzhihua说: Multiple Models and to Apply The Right Artifacts.(2002/03/11 10:19)
xchyj进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:19)
simaetin对scottambler说: yes, it's maybe up to communication skill, instead of technical choice.(2002/03/11 10:19)
scottambler对lzhihua说: You need several types of requirement artifacts to do the job.(2002/03/11 10:19)
sprighu对scottambler说: How to apply agile to embedded domain?(2002/03/11 10:20)
scottambler对415918说: I would assume so, but I don't do ERP so I don't really know.(2002/03/11 10:20)
normanwu对大家说: how to introduce ooad method into a traditional software company?(2002/03/11 10:20)
scottambler对simaetin说: People issues are always the most important ones to deal with and usually the hardest. You need good communication skills.(2002/03/11 10:20)
lzhihua对scottambler说: yup , i agree . use case just focus on functional requirement .does it work well in all case ?(2002/03/11 10:21)
scottambler对sprighu说: Carefully! I don't do any embedded work so I don't have many insights to share with you. Sorry.(2002/03/11 10:21)
ying_mo对大家说: i think agile method is more effient in small team and with frequent change(2002/03/11 10:21)
eport进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:21)
cliffxiao对scottambler说: what kind of requirement isn't use case fit for?(2002/03/11 10:22)
dejol对scottambler说: how do you think EJB in china?(2002/03/11 10:22)
scottambler对normanwu说: It's hard to introduce change into any organization. I would start small and let it grow over time.(2002/03/11 10:22)
sliuhao对scottambler说: hi!Mr.Scott.I am a java developer.I am interesting in the persistence layer(Such as JDO or ODMG API).would you please give me a snapshot of the case using it in Canada?(2002/03/11 10:22)
sliuhao对scottambler说: thanks.(2002/03/11 10:22)
davidqql微笑着对scottambler说: Some of my team members think that the UML is too complex, how can I treat it?(2002/03/11 10:22)
scottambler对cliffxiao说: use cases aren't very good at technical requirements, business rules, or constraints. They're also not good for UI requirements.(2002/03/11 10:22)
scottambler对dejol说: I don't know. I haven't been to China yet. I don't see why you couldn't use EJB there.(2002/03/11 10:23)
415918对scottambler说: is ejb appropriable for a product?(2002/03/11 10:23)
normanwu对大家说: then what is the start point, I mean, where should I start from?(2002/03/11 10:23)
scottambler对sliuhao说: I've used persistence layers on several projects in Canada. They work very well. If you have more than 40 business classes I would consider using them.(2002/03/11 10:24)
higoals对大家说: how to use ucm to support design?(2002/03/11 10:24)
gigix对scottambler说: I saw AM's 5th value is Humility. Would you please tell us why do you insist Humility?(2002/03/11 10:24)
scottambler对davidqql说: The UML is both too complex yet not big enough. One of the major improvements coming out in UML 2.0 will be a definition of a core 20% of the notation. You can start by(2002/03/11 10:24)
simaetin对scottambler说: Any artifact rather than plain document to present the requirement that is not suitable for use case?(2002/03/11 10:24)
scottambler对davidqql说: trying to identify that yourself and getting your people to focus there.(2002/03/11 10:25)
lzhihua对scottambler说: what you metion above is non-functional requirement , right/(2002/03/11 10:25)
scottambler对normanwu说: I would start with a small project that is important but not mission critical. Get them to use the new techniques and learn from your expereinces.(2002/03/11 10:25)
scottambler对normanwu说: I'm helping a company do something similar to that right now.(2002/03/11 10:25)
scottambler对415918说: Depends on the product I guess. Check out www.theserverside.com for EJB-related informatoin.(2002/03/11 10:26)
Charity_Zhou对大家说: hi,scottambler,now i has a project on hand.I perfer to use J2EE, but most of the fellows are fans of MS. How can i do?(2002/03/11 10:26)
scottambler对higoals说: UCM = Use case modeling?(2002/03/11 10:26)
davidqql微笑着对scottambler说: The use case is obviously not good at non-functional requirements, so need we write those requirements in another document rather than model?(2002/03/11 10:26)
myou对大家说: For a doctoral candidate student, what's Ur advice on the Acdemic area of EjB and AM?(2002/03/11 10:26)
scottambler对lzhihua说: Yes, non-functional requirements.(2002/03/11 10:27)
normanwu对大家说: then what is the key point? I find it is really hard for me to change the way of their thinking(2002/03/11 10:27)
Charity_Zhou对大家说: sorry(2002/03/11 10:27)
415918对scottambler说: ejb is a component and it should depend on the application server.As a product, i think we should have more control in the server-side application(2002/03/11 10:27)
scottambler对gigix说: I insist on humility because many developers think that they know it all, that they don't need to work with others, and that their users are stupid. In the short term(2002/03/11 10:27)
lzhihua对scottambler说: is there some artifact to model non-functional requirement ,or only by words?(2002/03/11 10:27)
myou对scottambler说: For a doctoral candidate student, what's Ur advice on the Acdemic area of EjB and AM?(2002/03/11 10:28)
scottambler对gigix说: they may be able to produce good work but in the long term they're actually harming themselves and their team.(2002/03/11 10:28)
higoals对大家说: yes,thnks for your answer(2002/03/11 10:28)
dejol对scottambler说: I don't know why! the EJB fit to the big project?(2002/03/11 10:28)
cber离开了聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:28)
Charity_Zhou对大家说: hi,scottambler, i has a project on hand. I perfer to use J2EE, but most of the fellows are fans of MS, how can i do?(2002/03/11 10:28)
jay@对scottambler说: Mr.Scott, how do you think the future of J2EE and .net?(2002/03/11 10:28)
scottambler对myou说: Never really thought of EJB and AM as a doctoral project. Seems like you'd want to identify an issue to explore.(2002/03/11 10:28)
xurong进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:29)
gigix对scottambler说: Then if in the view of AM, how do you think about a programmer? What's the role of programmer?(2002/03/11 10:29)
Charity_Zhou对大家说: sorry again(2002/03/11 10:29)
ying_mo对scottambler说: many cases that you have mentioned are in java, what about c++ or vc?(2002/03/11 10:29)
scottambler对normanwu说: Something that I like to point out is that there are very few new tools for structured development, everything focuses on OO and components. They need to change with the(2002/03/11 10:29)
scottambler对normanwu说: times.(2002/03/11 10:29)
415918对scottambler说: that is to say maybe we should build our own containers or services plugged into the application server(2002/03/11 10:30)
scottambler对Charity_Zhou说: Is multi-vendor and cross-platform issues important to them? If not then you likely won't get them to change their minds.(2002/03/11 10:30)
umlchina离开了聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:30)
normanwu对大家说: I see the force, and they see the force too, but they still think there are too much risk for them to change(2002/03/11 10:30)
wjccnu进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:30)
scottambler对jay@说: I thinkt that they are both good technologies and both will stick around for a long time.(2002/03/11 10:30)
normanwu对大家说: the presure of project and unfarmiliar with the new method(2002/03/11 10:31)
scottambler对gigix说: I prefer to think of people as developers, not just as programmers. I would hope that this person has modeling skills, programming skills, and testing skills. That way(2002/03/11 10:31)
scottambler对gigix说: they are a very valuable project member.(2002/03/11 10:31)
ansen_chen离开了聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:32)
myou对scottambler说: if U are studying in AM for a doctoral progrmamming. which research topic will interest you?(2002/03/11 10:32)
scottambler对gigix说: But being a programmer is a great place to start your career as a developer. Just remember that there is far more to development than programming.(2002/03/11 10:32)
notyy离开了聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:32)
cliffxiao对scottambler说: Just now you said that use case is't fit for business rules, so are there other effective ways to handle them?(2002/03/11 10:32)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: no really need for multi-vendor and cross-platform,but the cost of MS is too expensive. I'd like to use LINUX instead of Windows.(2002/03/11 10:32)
scottambler对normanwu说: They need to garner the courage then.(2002/03/11 10:32)
umlsz进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:33)
scottambler对415918说: You want to rewrite the container? Sounds like a lot of work.(2002/03/11 10:33)
umlsz对大家说: hey(2002/03/11 10:33)
umlchina进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:33)
scottambler对myou说: I think that an interesting topic would be to study a team that has adopted AM and try to judge how well it works in practice.(2002/03/11 10:33)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: And there is no successed applications on .Net. How about the future of J2EE and ..Net(2002/03/11 10:34)
scottambler对myou说: Is it more effective? Are they increasing their chance of success? What is the learning curve?(2002/03/11 10:34)
415918对scottambler说: but i think it is the trend,such as Jboss's "super containers"(2002/03/11 10:34)
jay@对scottambler说: Thanks(2002/03/11 10:34)
dejol对scottambler说: I know some developer didn't use the EntityBean in some project.how do you think?(2002/03/11 10:34)
415918对scottambler说: And HP server has the same idea(2002/03/11 10:34)
scottambler对cliffxiao说: Yes. I typically record business rules outside of use cases and refer to them in the use cases. MS Word or a text editor works well, as do index cards.(2002/03/11 10:35)
myou对scottambler说: Is there any math methodology used to improve the interesting research?(2002/03/11 10:35)
scottambler对Charity_Zhou说: If they start to use Linux then EJB is a good fit. Do they recognize MS as being expensive?(2002/03/11 10:35)
scottambler对Charity_Zhou说: I think that MS has a few .Net apps up and running now. not sure though.(2002/03/11 10:36)
jay@对Charity_Zhou说: Is there no successed applications on .Net?(2002/03/11 10:36)
hustwjz对大家说: any body here?(2002/03/11 10:36)
higoals进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:36)
higoals对scottambler说: what ,from your point,is the future of AM ?(2002/03/11 10:36)
scottambler对415918说: But Jboss is a big open source effort. I guess you could modify their stuff if you wanted to.(2002/03/11 10:37)
Charity_Zhou对jay@说: yeah,i has not heared about that,although there are some tests.(2002/03/11 10:37)
415918对scottambler说: As a successful developer and consultant,what is your advice to become an outstanding developper?(2002/03/11 10:37)
hustwjz进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:37)
scottambler对dejol说: Entity beans really aren't all that useful in real applications. Most people use session beans and normal busueinss objects.(2002/03/11 10:37)
xurong离开了聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:37)
scottambler对myou说: I don't know.(2002/03/11 10:38)
higoals对scottambler说: what ,from your point,is the future of AM ?((2002/03/11 10:38)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: There is a update pressure whiling using MS. That's really terriable.(2002/03/11 10:38)
sprighu对scottambler说: test(2002/03/11 10:38)
scottambler对higoals说: I hope that it is a bright one. I think that many other methodologists will start applying it into their techniques.(2002/03/11 10:38)
dingyilay进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:39)
scottambler对higoals说: There is a new XP book coming out from Prentice Hall which includes a section on AM, and I suspect in the next year or so you'll start to see modeling books with AM as a(2002/03/11 10:39)
myou对scottambler说: Do U argee with me that AM is belong to Management Research Area.(2002/03/11 10:39)
scottambler对higoals说: major influence. We'll have to wait and see.(2002/03/11 10:39)
ying_mo对scottambler说: with agile method, is there any successed applications in c++,except java(2002/03/11 10:39)
dongyeye进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:40)
scottambler对higoals说: Once the UML 2.0 comes out I'll be rewriting The Object Primer (www.ambysoft.com/theObjectPrimer.html) to cover both it and AM in detail.(2002/03/11 10:40)
umlchina进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:40)
goldarcher离开了聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:40)
y_p_xie进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:40)
scottambler对myou说: I would think that AM belongs to software development or software engineering areas.(2002/03/11 10:40)
gigix对scottambler说: AM said that "Update Only When It Hurts". Is that means it does not apply refactoring?(2002/03/11 10:41)
chinalbh进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:41)
higoals对scottambler说: thanks a lot!(2002/03/11 10:41)
jay@对scottambler说: Is AM from Agile Manufacture?(2002/03/11 10:41)
scottambler对ying_mo说: I don't do a lot of C++ work any more, so I don't know personally. However, I have heard about C++ projects on the XP mailing list on Yahoo Groups.(2002/03/11 10:41)
gigix对大家说: AM : Agile Modeling(2002/03/11 10:41)
gigix对大家说: 敏捷建模，一种建模方法。(2002/03/11 10:42)
normanwu对大家说: how do you think about iteration, do you think iteration still have risk, because of the unknown requirements?(2002/03/11 10:42)
scottambler对gigix说: Update Only When It Hurts is more of a modeling and documentation practice, whereas refactoring is a coding practice. You could refactor your code but choose not to(2002/03/11 10:42)
scottambler对gigix说: update your models or documentation.(2002/03/11 10:42)
illfly进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:42)
yzpower进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:42)
dejol对scottambler说: Entity Beans has not more effective.and how do you think the future of Entity Beans? what is the new feature of EntityBeans in EJB2.0?(2002/03/11 10:43)
gigix对scottambler说: Oh, I see. Thanks.(2002/03/11 10:43)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: so how about the future of J2EE and .Net,according to your viewpoint(2002/03/11 10:43)
scottambler对jay@说: No. AM was the name suggested by Bob Martin about a year ago when I decided that the original name, eXtreme Modeling, wasn't a good fit. There were other suggestions(2002/03/11 10:43)
scottambler对jay@说: but I liked AM the best.(2002/03/11 10:43)
scottambler对dejol说: I think that they'll stick with entity beans for quite a long time because they are good for low-performance applications and for prototyping.(2002/03/11 10:44)
jay@对scottambler说: I know AM, but i know Agile Manufactue - a new thought in ME(2002/03/11 10:44)
gigix对scottambler说: Refactoring doesn't change program's behavior, so I can don't update my documentation.(2002/03/11 10:44)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: i think that's important whiling choosing the framework(2002/03/11 10:44)
scottambler对Charity_Zhou说: Both J2Ee and .Net will be around for a long time.(2002/03/11 10:44)
xfirex进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:44)
scottambler对gigix说: Refactoring changes the design, so you may need to change your design documentation to reflect your code changes.(2002/03/11 10:45)
ying_mo对scottambler说: Thank u, but I think, as a methodology, AM is language-independent, do you think so?(2002/03/11 10:45)
higoals对scottambler说: i think the most important thing for such tools or methods as AM,UMLand so on is to resolve the problems we meet,then what is your idea about this ?(2002/03/11 10:45)
hustwjz进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:45)
scottambler对ying_mo说: Yes, I think that AM is language independent. You can use it for Java projects, COBOL projects, or C# projects. It's also independent of modeling language, such as UML,(2002/03/11 10:46)
scottambler对ying_mo说: as well. It's one of the few modeling methods that doesn't specify the exact artifacts, such as use cases or data models, that you are supposed to create.(2002/03/11 10:47)
dingyilay对大家说: Can you give me some advise on embledded system about AM(2002/03/11 10:47)
scottambler对ying_mo说: It's a lot like XP -- XP doesn't say that you have to use Java.(2002/03/11 10:47)
dingyilay对大家说: Can you give me some advise on embledded system about AM(2002/03/11 10:47)
scottambler对ying_mo说: AM strives to address the issues of how to be effective at modeling and documentation, problems that many developers struggle with.(2002/03/11 10:48)
myou进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:48)
myou对scottambler说: Is there any tool to support AM?(2002/03/11 10:48)
jay@对scottambler说: Mr.Scott, what kinds of books do you like to read much?(2002/03/11 10:48)
dejol对scottambler说: think!(2002/03/11 10:48)
simaetin对scottambler说: Isn't it modelling a concept for OO paradigm?(2002/03/11 10:48)
scottambler对ying_mo说: UML, on the other hand, strives to address the issue of what notation and semantics should be applied to model OO and component software. Each technique is(2002/03/11 10:48)
scottambler对ying_mo说: trying to address different but complementary issues.(2002/03/11 10:48)
ying_mo微笑着对scottambler说: thanks a lot(2002/03/11 10:49)
dingyilay对scottambler说: Can you give me some advise on embledded system about AM(2002/03/11 10:49)
scottambler对myou说: Hard question to answer. You can use tools in an agile manner or not. Whitebaords and index cards are very effective,(2002/03/11 10:49)
start_shu进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:50)
scottambler对myou说: and CASE tools that generate code can be very good as well. The important issue is whether the tool provides good value for your investment.(2002/03/11 10:50)
scottambler对dingyilay说: What do you want to know?(2002/03/11 10:50)
scottambler对dingyilay说: I don't do much embedded work, so I likely don't have much advice to give you.(2002/03/11 10:50)
Charity_Zhou进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:50)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: Using UML, i felt puzzled about the granularity of the UC,role,etc.(2002/03/11 10:50)
scottambler对dingyilay说: Try it and find out, and then report back to everyone else is likely the best advice I can give.(2002/03/11 10:51)
dingyilay对scottambler说: i want to known how to use the AM on embledded system develpent(2002/03/11 10:51)
scottambler对Charity_Zhou说: In what way?(2002/03/11 10:51)
higoals对scottambler说: is there any chat rooms just like this in your county to discuss AM and others?(2002/03/11 10:51)
scottambler对Charity_Zhou说: I don't know of a chat room set up, but I do have the AM mailing list. If you visit www.agilemodeling.com/feedback.htm it describes the list.(2002/03/11 10:52)
niufenehao进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:52)
scottambler对Charity_Zhou说: The list has people from all over the world on it.(2002/03/11 10:52)
moonlight21cn2001进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:52)
xkfy进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:53)
scottambler对dingyilay说: A good way to find out about AM and embedded might be to post a question on the AM mailing list and get a conversation going.(2002/03/11 10:53)
myou对scottambler说: The question is brought out because there is a called software process eviroment in Acedemic Research.Do U think is there any possible to build such eviroment to support(2002/03/11 10:53)
myou对scottambler说: AM?(2002/03/11 10:53)
415918对大家说: thanks and bye, scott,bye, all guys,have a nice day(2002/03/11 10:53)
jay@对scottambler说: Mr.Scott, i adore you very much, i'd like to know what's your interest besides tech?(2002/03/11 10:53)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: ok,i will visit it. And I read lots of your article on mapping object to DBMS(2002/03/11 10:54)
lzhihua对scottambler说: how AM think about the architecture ?(2002/03/11 10:54)
scottambler对myou说: I'm not sure that you'd want to put togetehr a program just around AM.(2002/03/11 10:54)
ying_mo微笑着对scottambler说: it's said that refactoring is more efficient in java application, what do you think about it?(2002/03/11 10:54)
scottambler对myou说: Putting it around agile methods in general, such as XP and DSDM and AM, would make a lot of sense(2002/03/11 10:54)
scottambler对415918说: My pleasure.(2002/03/11 10:54)
xuxu1976进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:54)
higoals对scottambler说: what is the vision of your company ?(2002/03/11 10:55)
scottambler对jay@说: Good question. I study Goju Ryu karate and Tai Chi Chuan, and really enjoy landscape photography.(2002/03/11 10:55)
bobqi进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:56)
scottambler对jay@说: I also love to travel. I've been to Antarctica last year and hope to get to China one day. I'd love to see the great wall, the desert, and many other things.(2002/03/11 10:56)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: the patterns of mapping is simple,but while mapping,i must think over about the performance.(2002/03/11 10:56)
gigix对scottambler说: Will someday come to China?(2002/03/11 10:56)
scottambler对lzhihua说: Architecture is an important issue. I've written an essay about AM and architecture at the www.agilemodeling.com site. It might also be at www.agilechina.com too.(2002/03/11 10:57)
jay@对scottambler说: Welcome to China!(2002/03/11 10:57)
higoals对scottambler说: what is your impression of china,chinese,and chinese software?(2002/03/11 10:57)
ying_mo微笑着对scottambler说: Welcome to China!(2002/03/11 10:57)
macrogao进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:57)
scottambler对ying_mo说: Most refactorings are currently focused on OO code, such as Java and C++. however, the technique itself could be applied to non-OO languages.(2002/03/11 10:57)
umlchina进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:58)
jay@对scottambler说: and what's Tai Chi Chuan? tai ji quan?(2002/03/11 10:58)
frankleung进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:58)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: so i think the depth of the inheritence tree should be kept under 2 or 3,otherwise it may be terriable while getting an object from DBMS.(2002/03/11 10:58)
scottambler对ying_mo说: Some work is being done regarding data refactorings but it's pretty tough to do them.(2002/03/11 10:58)
shaojl进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 10:58)
scottambler对gigix说: I definitely will. Last year I almost made it to Beijing for some work but it got cancelled due to Sept 11th.(2002/03/11 10:59)
scottambler对gigix说: I'll definitely get there for a vacation some day.(2002/03/11 10:59)
gigix对scottambler说: Sigh...(2002/03/11 10:59)
myou对jay@说: I think U guess right.(2002/03/11 10:59)
scottambler对jay@说: Tai Chi Chaun might be the English spelling of Tai Chi Quan. I'm not sure.(2002/03/11 10:59)
gigix对scottambler说: If you are coming to Beijing, please tell me: gigix@umlchina.com(2002/03/11 11:00)
jay@对scottambler说: China' tai ji quan ? good ^_^ and Antarctica ? good too!(2002/03/11 11:00)
chinalbh微笑着对大家说: bye(2002/03/11 11:00)
gigix对scottambler说: I'll be glad to receive you.(2002/03/11 11:00)
scottambler对Charity_Zhou说: It depends on how you map the hierarchy. There are three main ways to do so, but the deeper the hierarchy the bigger the performance hit generally.(2002/03/11 11:00)
goodhero进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:00)
scottambler对gigix说: Will do. thanks(2002/03/11 11:01)
ying_mo对scottambler说: there are also a lot of work to do with refactoring, it's not very mature, is that right?(2002/03/11 11:01)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: yes,we are always make a decide between the performance and the storage(2002/03/11 11:01)
gigix对scottambler说: And my job is the editor of the magazine "Programmer". Do you have anything for Chinese programmers ( or developers )?(2002/03/11 11:01)
lzhihua对scottambler说: do you think the changing requierment will have a bad influence on architecture?(2002/03/11 11:01)
scottambler对ying_mo说: A lot of people are using it very successfully. I think refactoring is a pretty solid technique.(2002/03/11 11:02)
sprighu进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:02)
sprighu对scottambler说: TEST(2002/03/11 11:02)
aspring进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:02)
goodhero离开了聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:02)
scottambler对gigix说: I think the most important thing that programmers can do is to keep learning. Focus on more than just programming. Learn modeling skills, communication skills, busines(2002/03/11 11:03)
scottambler对gigix说: skills, and non-work related things.(2002/03/11 11:03)
ying_mo对scottambler说: agree with u(2002/03/11 11:03)
scottambler对lzhihua说: Changing requirements are a reality of the job. You need to accept this and act accordingly.(2002/03/11 11:03)
scottambler对lzhihua说: I would suggest not overbuilding your architecture, not over modeling it, and not over documenting it. When you do these things a change(2002/03/11 11:04)
scottambler对lzhihua说: in requirements can really hurt you.(2002/03/11 11:04)
myou对gigix说: what's about "Programmer", is it a formal publication?(2002/03/11 11:05)
umlchina进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:05)
jay@对scottambler说: Mr.Scott, i think you must be in thinking almost all the day, do you feel tired? do you think as a philosopher? or do you like philosophe? thanks.(2002/03/11 11:06)
myou对gigix说: Is it Ur major work, or part time job?(2002/03/11 11:06)
scottambler对jay@说: Depends on my mood I guess. I philosophize whenever I have a spare moment to myself. I find that some of my best thinking gets done(2002/03/11 11:06)
ying_mo对scottambler说: I'm very interested in refactoring, but there are few books addressing about it, how do i start to learn?(2002/03/11 11:07)
scottambler对jay@说: when I'm on a plane or driving my car. Guess it's because my brain is being given a chance to wind down when I'm doing these things(2002/03/11 11:07)
co_create进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:07)
kuhai进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:08)
myou对gigix说: I see it every Journal(2002/03/11 11:08)
scottambler对myou说: Software development is my main job. I write as a hobby. because I consult I"m usually on the road visiting clients and(2002/03/11 11:08)
scottambler对myou说: therefore have a lot of spare time on my hand. As a result I get to write about the things that I'm doing. I also plan books out several years in advance and slowing(2002/03/11 11:09)
scottambler对myou说: take notes over time. For example right now I'm working on a UML Modeling Style book, www.modelingstyle.info is where I'm currently posting(2002/03/11 11:09)
scottambler对myou说: information about that work, and have a new AM book project waiting in the wings.(2002/03/11 11:09)
xueweidong进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:10)
scottambler对ying_mo说: There's Martin Fowler's book and his web site. The XP community also talks about it a fair bit.(2002/03/11 11:10)
scottambler对ying_mo说: Refactoring will be a major topic, as far as I know, at the upcoming XP 2002 in Italy in May. I suspect it will also be a major(2002/03/11 11:10)
simaetin对scottambler说: Which way do you think is the better way to learn modelling, starting a new project or improving on the legacy asset?(2002/03/11 11:10)
scottambler对ying_mo说: topic at the XP/Agile Universe convention in Chicago in August. As paper get published from those(2002/03/11 11:11)
scottambler对ying_mo说: efforts I suspect we'll see more and more information about refactoring. Just takes time.(2002/03/11 11:11)
scottambler对ying_mo说: There are also some interesting refactoring browsers now too, such as IDEA for Java. Worth looking into.(2002/03/11 11:11)
andy2ray进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:12)
scottambler对simaetin说: It would depend on the person I guess. Some people like new things. other people like legacy projects.(2002/03/11 11:12)
scottambler对simaetin说: Legacy modeling is one area where very few people have written about it. It's a major topic that I intend to address in my second AM book.(2002/03/11 11:12)
wangjue进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:12)
Charity_Zhou进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:13)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: Can we demand to use .Net now?(2002/03/11 11:13)
scottambler对simaetin说: I'll likely publish an essay or two about it at www.agilemodeling.com one day(2002/03/11 11:13)
illfly离开了聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:13)
simaetin对scottambler说: Anyway I believe the larger the project is, the more a developer can learn from, right?(2002/03/11 11:13)
scottambler对Charity_Zhou说: I don't see why not. MS has most of the development tools available to you.(2002/03/11 11:13)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: I really felt MS has some good ideas and really has some good products,such as office(2002/03/11 11:13)
jay@对scottambler说: philosophize whenever ? and you say you always talk with client, then do you feel some confliction? maybe some client are difficult to communnicate, especilly in your(2002/03/11 11:14)
jay@对scottambler说: level ?(2002/03/11 11:14)
ying_mo很高兴地对scottambler说: thank u very much!(2002/03/11 11:14)
scottambler对simaetin说: Depends. On a smaller project team you end up doing many things because there isn't many people. On bigger teams you might end(2002/03/11 11:14)
scottambler对simaetin说: up focusing on one specific activity. You'll get good at that activity but not much else.(2002/03/11 11:14)
lzhihua对scottambler说: you emphasize on not overbuilding , it is the same in xp.(2002/03/11 11:15)
chpop进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:15)
scottambler对jay@说: It's always an issue. I find, however, that the most important thoughts that I get from clients are the questions that they ask and the issues that they're struggling(2002/03/11 11:15)
simaetin对scottambler说: I agree with u, but in the practice you can hardly find experienced mentor in the small who you can learn from.(2002/03/11 11:15)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: but there are no successed projetcs using .Net. And the pressure of upgrate. That's the questions.(2002/03/11 11:16)
scottambler对jay@说: with. It's one of the reasons why I became focused on object mapping to RDBs years ago,(2002/03/11 11:16)
ying_mo遗憾地对scottambler说: i think refactoring,as well as AM, is still not so well known in china. I have not yet seen the chinese edition of Mr. Fowler's book.(2002/03/11 11:16)
simaetin对scottambler说: small project , I mean(2002/03/11 11:16)
scottambler对jay@说: I didn't realize that so many people were struggling with it until I started talking to others about it.(2002/03/11 11:16)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: According to your usage,how about the perfermance that Java runs on Linux?(2002/03/11 11:16)
scottambler对simaetin说: Yes, smaller teams often don't have the mentors that they need.(2002/03/11 11:17)
gigix对大家说: The best book about refactoring : "Refactoring".(2002/03/11 11:17)
zhang_oliver进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:17)
gigix对大家说: Please see www.csdn.net/overseas(2002/03/11 11:17)
scottambler对ying_mo说: I don't know if it's been translated yet. Sounds like an opportunity for someone if it hasn't.(2002/03/11 11:17)
gigix对大家说: I introduced this book there.(2002/03/11 11:17)
davidqql微笑着对gigix说: Do you know when will it be pressed?(2002/03/11 11:17)
gigix对大家说: It will be translated by JJHou. Enough?(2002/03/11 11:18)
gigix对大家说: I don't know the exact time.(2002/03/11 11:18)
scottambler对Charity_Zhou说: Yes, it's what we call a "Catch 22" in North America. You'll have to either wait, and potentially miss out on some market opportunities, or risk using .NET and having it(2002/03/11 11:18)
scottambler对Charity_Zhou说: change when MS brings out the next round of tools.(2002/03/11 11:18)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: As i known, Linux has no VM,it's not really support threads(it manage the threads as processes),that makes the perfermance lower.(2002/03/11 11:18)
jay@对scottambler说: oh? then your clients are developers?(2002/03/11 11:18)
scottambler对Charity_Zhou说: My company, Ronin International, www.ronin-intl.com, has had some good experiences running Java on Linux.(2002/03/11 11:19)
scottambler对Charity_Zhou说: Most Java performance problems, at least in business applications, tend to focus on poor database design and not on pure Java issues.(2002/03/11 11:19)
scottambler对Charity_Zhou说: Linux has no VM? That certainly doesn't sound right to me.(2002/03/11 11:20)
fly_sky进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:20)
fly_sky进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:20)
scottambler对Charity_Zhou说: Poke around the java.sun.com site.(2002/03/11 11:20)
simaetin对scottambler说: what's your age if it's not offense, and do you still take coding now? The question is what's the age extreme of programming work for ordinary people.(2002/03/11 11:20)
ying_mo对大家说: Is there any book which addressing agile, i geuss not.(2002/03/11 11:20)
scottambler对jay@说: depends on the project. I'm typically working with people all through the hiearchy, anyone from developers to senior executives.(2002/03/11 11:21)
lzhihua对scottambler说: i think that who want to avoid overbuilding should know what is overbuilding first . can you give some suggestion.(2002/03/11 11:21)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: I perfer to use linux on Aplication server and DB server(2002/03/11 11:21)
mincat进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:21)
scottambler对simaetin说: No offense. I'm 35. I code a little bit but not as often as I would like. I typically get put into senior roles and don't get to code(2002/03/11 11:22)
scottambler对simaetin说: as much as I used to. It's a problem.(2002/03/11 11:22)
jay@对scottambler说: oh, i thought your clients are application users(2002/03/11 11:22)
scottambler对ying_mo说: There are several books addressing Agile development, look at www.agilemodeling.com/resources.htm for some of them. The AM book starts shipping in North America in 2 wks(2002/03/11 11:22)
niufenehao离开了聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:22)
davidqql离开了聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:23)
scottambler对lzhihua说: Overbuilding is when you put features into your architecture that you don't need right now, or when you make them(2002/03/11 11:23)
xkfy进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:23)
xkfy对scottambler说: what program language is your favourite?(2002/03/11 11:23)
scottambler对lzhihua说: more complicated than they need to be. Many developers will focus on "a really cool" thing that they like to work on and overbuild as a result.(2002/03/11 11:24)
scottambler对lzhihua说: A common example is when a project team spends several months at the beginning of a project building frameworks and reuable code libraries.(2002/03/11 11:24)
scottambler对xkfy说: My favorite is Smalltalk although I do most of my work in Java these days. I'm starting to look at C# but am not on a project yet.(2002/03/11 11:25)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: it's a cheap choose,but i feel it will be a bad choose,because all of the users and maintances only have little experience on MS. Linux will make lots of troubles!(2002/03/11 11:25)
scottambler对jay@说: I'll often work with users to gather requirements.(2002/03/11 11:25)
scottambler对Charity_Zhou说: Could be. Depends on your environment. If everyone has experience on one platform then you're likely better off going with that one.(2002/03/11 11:26)
ying_mo对scottambler说: what about c++, that's my favorite!(2002/03/11 11:26)
scottambler对ying_mo说: I used to work in C++, it's pretty good, and C before that.(2002/03/11 11:27)
lzhihua对scottambler说: thank you . but on the contrary , i just worry about that the bad design will cost too much when refactoring. so it seem that it can only work well in a very good team.(2002/03/11 11:27)
scottambler对ying_mo说: I've even worked in COBOL and Fortran.(2002/03/11 11:27)
jay@对scottambler说: Mr.Scott, It's said that there's nothing new under the sun. do you think can we get all mothodology needed from ancient phinosophy?(2002/03/11 11:28)
scottambler对lzhihua说: With refactoring your design shouldn't get bad to start with.(2002/03/11 11:28)
simaetin对gigix说: in csdn, it's simply a link to amazon!(2002/03/11 11:28)
dejol离开了聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:28)
scottambler对lzhihua说: If you've got a bad team, you'll have problems no matter what your approach I think.(2002/03/11 11:28)
jay@对scottambler说: such as Greece and China?(2002/03/11 11:29)
scottambler对jay@说: I'm sure that someone with write a book called "The Tao of Agile Development" one day.(2002/03/11 11:29)
ying_mo对scottambler说: i have read "Effective C++"(Scott Mayers), i think it's very intersting, and learn a lot from it!(2002/03/11 11:29)
scottambler对jay@说: You can always map current day work back to the ancients. A perfect example is how the writings of Sun Tzu have been(2002/03/11 11:30)
scottambler对jay@说: used in business books. I bet if he was alive today he'd have a great laugh about that!(2002/03/11 11:30)
simaetin对scottambler说: what a chinese culture lover!(2002/03/11 11:30)
gigix对scottambler说: Don't you think the word "Tao" like something metaphysics? :)(2002/03/11 11:30)
xkfy对scottambler说: can you give a comparison between C++ and smalltalk?(2002/03/11 11:30)
lzhihua对scottambler说: ha , right ..(2002/03/11 11:30)
scottambler对ying_mo说: Effective C++ and the follow-up book were both amazing.(2002/03/11 11:31)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: i can not find the usage of linux on your site(2002/03/11 11:31)
fly_sky进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:31)
lzhihua对scottambler说: but it is somewhat the reality.(2002/03/11 11:31)
xuxu1976对scottambler说: hi,Mr.Ambler,how do you think about RUP(2002/03/11 11:31)
scottambler对xkfy说: Smalltalk is a much higher-level than C++ and is a pure OO language. C++ offers better performance and lets you get closer into the hardware.(2002/03/11 11:32)
gigix对scottambler说: Science develops so fast, philosophy is dead. Especially in Computer Science.(2002/03/11 11:32)
scottambler对xkfy说: Both languages have been eclipsed by Java, although C++ is still popular. Smalltalk has pretty well died, which is unfortunate.(2002/03/11 11:32)
xuxu1976对scottambler说: I think in SE domain there are many many zooty methods, not pratical?(2002/03/11 11:32)
jay@对scottambler说: sorry , what's Sun Tzu(2002/03/11 11:32)
scottambler对xuxu1976说: RUP is pretty good for the right environments. You have to have a project team willing to follow detailed instructions.(2002/03/11 11:33)
simaetin对jay@说: sun wu, sun zi(2002/03/11 11:33)
scottambler对xuxu1976说: In SE there are a lot of thing that won't work if you apply them the wrong way. There are also a lot of methods that seem to be implemented(2002/03/11 11:33)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: Can we use COM+/DOCM instead of using .Net ?(2002/03/11 11:34)
scottambler对xuxu1976说: in a very heavy fashion, which is too bad.(2002/03/11 11:34)
myou对scottambler说: Do U have read any books related to the Chinese ancient philosophy?(2002/03/11 11:34)
xuxu1976对scottambler说: you mean RUP is suitable for a big company, with everybody just do his work, such as architecure design, component design,etc?(2002/03/11 11:34)
ying_mo对scottambler说: i have learned something about design patterns, how do you think about it?(2002/03/11 11:34)
scottambler对simaetin说: Sun Wu == Sun Tzu? Didn't know that. Lucky I didn't mention Bodhidharma. ;-)(2002/03/11 11:34)
lanzhou进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:34)
scottambler对Charity_Zhou说: Depends on what you're trying to do. MS seems to be moving away from it so I'd be careful.(2002/03/11 11:35)
jay@对gigix说: philosophy is dead ? maybe it's the mother of tech, CS also.(2002/03/11 11:35)
xuxu1976对scottambler说: if a 10 person's company, which method is suitable? is the document important? or we should add document directly into the code?(2002/03/11 11:35)
scottambler对ying_mo说: Patterns are important. AM includes a practice called "Apply Patterns Gently".(2002/03/11 11:35)
simaetin对scottambler说: Sun Wu is the original name of him, and Sun Tzu is the calling with respect, and is different spell with current c(2002/03/11 11:36)
simaetin对scottambler说: Chinese PINYIN by now.(2002/03/11 11:36)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: Yes,COM+/DCOM is going to background.That's a question too.(2002/03/11 11:36)
ying_mo对scottambler说: Apply Patterns Gently?(2002/03/11 11:36)
janrey进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:36)
higoals进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:36)
higoals对scottambler说: what do you think the nature of AM?(2002/03/11 11:36)
scottambler对xuxu1976说: In a 10 person company I'd likely be trying something along the lines of Extreme Programming or Feature Driven Development. Hard to say without knowing the exact(2002/03/11 11:36)
lzhihua对scottambler说: i ever think that the atomic unit in XP is individual person , why not combine 2 or 3 person as a unit to act like a senior developer . what 's your comment ?(2002/03/11 11:37)
ying_mo对scottambler说: what is it? i'm sorry!(2002/03/11 11:37)
scottambler对xuxu1976说: environment though. With regards to documentation, I prefer putting most docs in teh code but you'll still need external docs such as(2002/03/11 11:37)
myou对scottambler说: Do U have read any books related to the Chinese ancient philosophy?(2002/03/11 11:37)
scottambler对xuxu1976说: user manuals and system overview documents.(2002/03/11 11:37)
jay@对gigix说: Bodhidharma ? i like it(2002/03/11 11:37)
zhu_tao进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:38)
scottambler对ying_mo说: The basic idea is that you don't want to apply a pattern the instant you think you need it. Instead, wait until you are sure.(2002/03/11 11:38)
tiger_zhong进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:38)
scottambler对ying_mo说: For example, you might have a formula to implement. You could apply the strategy pattern right away, but the strategy pattern is applicable to several(2002/03/11 11:38)
scottambler对ying_mo说: formulas. Instead, wait until you actually have a second formula to implement, and then consider refactoring your code to make it easy to implement Strategy if it makes(2002/03/11 11:39)
xuxu1976对scottambler说: yes.thx you. and how do you think about component with the light Method?(2002/03/11 11:39)
scottambler对ying_mo说: sense later on. Then when the third formula needs to be implemented refactor your work some more, and when the fourth formala is required(2002/03/11 11:39)
scottambler对ying_mo说: then you should seriously consider implementing Strategy because now that is the simplest way to do it.(2002/03/11 11:40)
simaetin对scottambler说: For me, maybe firstly we won't implement the pattern with so many "Abstract", and leave these staffs to refactoring some day. do you agree?(2002/03/11 11:40)
scottambler对ying_mo说: If you had implemented Strategy right away and then only needed to implement the one formula, you would have done a lot of extra work for nothing.(2002/03/11 11:40)
scottambler对ying_mo说: The nature of AM? AM is a strange thing, it's a different way to look at modeling. I think it's nature is(2002/03/11 11:41)
ying_mo对scottambler说: oh, it's reasonable!(2002/03/11 11:41)
scottambler对ying_mo说: to keep things simple and to focus on what is actually required, to not get ahead of yourself.(2002/03/11 11:42)
scottambler对xuxu1976说: You can definitely do component development following light methods. Many people are using XP to do so.(2002/03/11 11:42)
scottambler对simaetin说: Yes, wait until you actually need to implement the pattern.(2002/03/11 11:43)
xfirex进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:43)
xfirex进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:44)
ying_mo对scottambler说: i think it's practical and reality-oriented, i mean AM, is that right?(2002/03/11 11:44)
xuxu1976对scottambler说: Oh.can you give a web site about "component development following light methods"?(2002/03/11 11:44)
scottambler对ying_mo说: My hope is that people will find AM to be of value to their development efforts. I have found it to be very useful on(2002/03/11 11:44)
scottambler对ying_mo说: the projects that I work on and my clients seem to be picking up on it too. Time will tell.(2002/03/11 11:45)
scottambler对ying_mo说: I'm trying to keep it as practical as possible. Many of the academics seem threatened by it, so that might be a good sign that it's practical. ;0((2002/03/11 11:45)
scottambler对ying_mo说: ;-)(2002/03/11 11:46)
simaetin对scottambler说: Could you give some predict on the prospect of the software developement?(2002/03/11 11:46)
scottambler对xuxu1976说: I don't know of one, but if you post a message on the XP mailing list I'm sure someone could point you in the right direction.(2002/03/11 11:46)
ying_mo对scottambler说: agree with u!(2002/03/11 11:46)
scottambler对simaetin说: In what ways?(2002/03/11 11:46)
scottambler对simaetin说: I think that software development will become more agile over time, but it will take a generation to do so.(2002/03/11 11:47)
flypuma进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:47)
simaetin对scottambler说: philosophy :)(2002/03/11 11:47)
scottambler对simaetin说: In North America we like to say that the pendulum is now swinging the other way. For the last 20 or 30 years(2002/03/11 11:47)
simaetin对scottambler说: no no, in the techical evolution(2002/03/11 11:47)
ying_mo对scottambler说: and i think AM is more suitable for small develop team with frequent changes, is it right?(2002/03/11 11:47)
xuxu1976对scottambler说: hehe.and where can i join that mailing list?thx.:)(2002/03/11 11:47)
scottambler对simaetin说: software development has been getting heavier and heavier. Now it's getting lighter. Time will tell.(2002/03/11 11:47)
scottambler对simaetin说: Technically I think that OO languages such as Java and C# will last for quite awhile. Web services is interesting but not the great savior that everyone(2002/03/11 11:48)
scottambler对simaetin说: makes it out to be.(2002/03/11 11:48)
gigix对scottambler说: In software development, does "lighter" mean "safer"? Why?(2002/03/11 11:49)
xuxu1976对scottambler说: and ambler, would you like to give us some advice on software development?(2002/03/11 11:49)
scottambler对ying_mo说: AM works very well in high-communication environments, and that tends to be smaller teams. If your requirements don't change(2002/03/11 11:49)
scottambler对ying_mo说: frequently, then AM's iterative and incremental nature likely isn't needed by your team.(2002/03/11 11:49)
alou进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:49)
scottambler对gigix说: Lighter might mean safer in some environments. Lighter generally means less documentation intensive, with a greater focus on actually developing software.(2002/03/11 11:50)
simaetin对scottambler说: Can I tell according to the pendulum rule, the heavier methodoloy will come back sooner or later after this season motivated by some unexpected reason?(2002/03/11 11:50)
scottambler对gigix说: One of AM's principles is "Your Primary Goal is Software" which means that you should be focused on the job at hand, not writing documetnation about it or writing(2002/03/11 11:50)
scottambler对gigix说: status reports about it. Too many people have seem to have forgotten this.(2002/03/11 11:51)
goldarcher进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:51)
scottambler对simaetin说: Probably, but hopefully I'll be retired by then!(2002/03/11 11:51)
scottambler对simaetin说: Heavy methods will never go away, they work very well in some situations. In fact, I've done work on something called(2002/03/11 11:52)
fly_sky进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:52)
fly_sky对scottambler说: do you think XP is a tempory technique,or a new direction of programming?(2002/03/11 11:52)
scottambler对simaetin说: the Enterprise Unified Process (EUP) -- visit www.ronin-intl.com -- for details.(2002/03/11 11:52)
ying_mo对scottambler说: so, i think AM is very suitable in china, because there are a lot of small teams in china!(2002/03/11 11:52)
iq777进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:52)
scottambler对simaetin说: That's a fairly heavy method as it extends RUP to include a new phase and two new disciplines/workflows.(2002/03/11 11:52)
jimi进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:52)
alou对大家说: I think most of us may think that AM is suitable 'cause we are lazy(2002/03/11 11:53)
scottambler对fly_sky说: I think that XP is real and it's here to stay. It will evolve over time(2002/03/11 11:53)
scottambler对alou说: Many people believe that the best developers are the lazy ones. ;-)(2002/03/11 11:53)
scottambler对alou说: You should use AM only if that's the best option for you, not because you want an excuse not to write documentation.(2002/03/11 11:54)
scottambler对alou说: In fact, the AM book and the AM site talks a fair bit about documentation and how to be effective creating it.(2002/03/11 11:54)
simaetin对scottambler说: From the martin folwer, the essence of the agile method is adaptive and people-intensive which are quite different with the old process.(2002/03/11 11:54)
Charity_Zhou进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:54)
Charity_Zhou对scottambler说: thanks , bye(2002/03/11 11:54)
scottambler对alou说: Many developers may find that AM asks them to do more modeling than what they did in the past.(2002/03/11 11:55)
Charity_Zhou离开了聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:55)
simaetin对scottambler说: I believe they will never expire, so I think the agiler, the better.(2002/03/11 11:55)
ying_mo很高兴地对scottambler说: i'm very interesting about AM and with its applying in real world!(2002/03/11 11:55)
jay@进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:55)
jay@对scottambler说: the best developers are the lazy ones ? interesting!(2002/03/11 11:55)
scottambler对simaetin说: Exactly. www.agilealliance.com has a good write up on this.(2002/03/11 11:55)
fly_sky对scottambler说: If i have some questions to ask you, How to contact you? thanks(2002/03/11 11:55)
cunny进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:56)
scottambler对ying_mo说: The best way to find about this is to try AM on your next project then.(2002/03/11 11:56)
scottambler对jay@说: The lazy ones are always looking for better ways to do things so they have less work to do.(2002/03/11 11:56)
andy2ray离开了聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:56)
ying_mo很高兴地对scottambler说: thank u!(2002/03/11 11:56)
jay@对scottambler说: i think so :-)(2002/03/11 11:56)
scottambler对jay@说: By the way, I need to wrap things up in a few minutes. Does anyone have any really important issues they need to ask me about before I go?(2002/03/11 11:56)
jay@对scottambler说: but don't think too much :-)(2002/03/11 11:56)
scottambler对ying_mo说: My pleasure.(2002/03/11 11:57)
scottambler对jay@说: Yep. ;-)(2002/03/11 11:57)
simaetin对scottambler说: it's time to say thank you,(2002/03/11 11:57)
xuxu1976进入聊天室.(2002/03/11 11:57)
xuxu1976对scottambler说: thk scott(2002/03/11 11:57)
flypuma对大家说: excuse me,who can tell me what is AM and XP? some URL ?(2002/03/11 11:57)
jay@对scottambler说: Thank you very much , Mr.Scott!(2002/03/11 11:58)
gigix对大家说: AM and XP's introduction: www.agilechina.org(2002/03/11 11:58)
scottambler对jay@说: AM = Agile Modeling(2002/03/11 11:58)
scottambler对jay@说: XP = Extreme Programming(2002/03/11 11:58)
scottambler对jay@说: www.agilemodeling.com, www.agilechina.com, www.xprogramming.com(2002/03/11 11:58)
scottambler对jay@说: oops, www.agilechina.org(2002/03/11 11:58)
ying_mo很高兴地对scottambler说: Thank you very much!Mr.Scott!(2002/03/11 11:58)
jay@对scottambler说: Thans again :;)(2002/03/11 11:58)
scottambler对umlchina说: Thanks for inviting me into your chat room. I've really enjoying this.(2002/03/11 11:59)
simaetin对scottambler说: fine, glad to talk with you and hope see you later(2002/03/11 11:59)
jay@对scottambler说: Thanks again ^_^(2002/03/11 11:59)
gigix对scottambler说: Good night!(2002/03/11 11:59)
scottambler对umlchina说: I hope to get to China one day, and hopefully will get to meet some of you when I do.(2002/03/11 11:59)
ying_mo很高兴地对scottambler说: I'm very glad to see you later!(2002/03/11 11:59)
scottambler对umlchina说: Thank you!(2002/03/11 11:59)
jay@对scottambler说: I'm looking forward to see you !(2002/03/11 12:00)
simaetin对scottambler说: simaetin@sina.com, If you like to contact(2002/03/11 12:00)
simaetin对scottambler说: when you come to china(2002/03/11 12:00)
scottambler离开了聊天室.(2002/03/11 12:00)