UMLChina第十一期专家交流实录

北京时间2001年12月7日（星期五）上午10:00-12:00。

嘉宾：Kent Beck。Kent Beck先生是软件开发方法学的泰斗，是XP（Extreme Programming）的创始人，有17年的面向对象的编程经验。他倡导软件开发的模式定义，CRC卡片在软件开发过程中的使用，HotDraw软件的体系结构，基于xUnit的测试框架，重新评估了在软件开发过程中测试优先的编程模式。 Kent Beck是《The Smalltalk Best Practice Patterns》、《Extreme Programming Explained》和《Planning Extreme Programming（与Martin Fowler合著）》的作者，并且承担了XP的领导工作。他现在是Three Rivers Institute的总裁。TRI从事于技术和商业接合的应用研究，是是新近成立的Agile Alliance的创始成员，Agile Alliance的使命就是要创建更好的软件开发方法。

交流重点：软件开发方法，XP...

主持人：XPChina的Notyy

网址：焦点网UMLChina小组聊天室（必须登录焦点网方可进入）

holyfire对大家说: 哇，今天的野花真香，呵呵，我是来听XP的(09:13)
gigix对大家说: 如果要讲XP，cber是个很好的角色，不过现在还没有找到他。(09:14)
gis007对大家说: 谁先介绍下XP(09:14)
gigix对大家说: XP：eXtreme Programming，极限编程。(09:15)
gigix对大家说: 这是一种快速开发方法。(09:15)
Charity_Zhou对大家说: I feel RUP so complexity,lots of documents to write.NOT suit with us(09:16)
gis007对大家说: 实现手段具体是如何？(09:16)
lianfa对大家说: 大家好，我是来听ＸＰ！(09:17)
holyfire对gigix说: 我想知道如果用XP跟别人合作开发，先做什么，后做什么(09:17)
cber对大家说: 各位早：)(09:17)
holyfire微笑着对cber说: 欢迎！啪啪啪啪啪啪啪……(09:18)
gigix对大家说: 现在我们请cber来讲讲XP(09:18)
gigix对大家说: 第一个问题：我想知道如果用XP跟别人合作开发，先做什么，后做什么？(09:18)
cber对大家说: gigix，不要让我出丑了(09:18)
cber对大家说: 搞了半天，才发现聊天室改版了，从上往下看了(09:19)
zengdabin对gigix说: XP是什么？那位高手能说说(09:19)
Charity_Zhou对gigix说: first step,STORY(09:20)
itsld进入聊天室.(09:21)
Charity_Zhou对gigix说: I just saw some documents for some days.(09:21)
chinafloat对大家说: 请问Kent Beck什么时候到(09:21)
gis007对大家说: 希望cher多讲讲。(09:22)
gigix对大家说: 对呀，cber讲。我也是来听课的，呵呵。(09:22)
cber对大家说: 讲什么啊？XP，我肯定不如Kent Beck，还是等他来了后再问他吧(09:23)
gis007对大家说: cber先给大家入个门。(09:23)
Charity_Zhou对gigix说: STORY is a description that the costumer give for a small case(09:23)
cber对大家说: 我们还是听听Charity_Zhou说吧(09:25)
Charity_Zhou对大家说: no,cber,u get the position,please(09:25)
gigix对大家说: Extreme Programming is a discipline of software development based on values of simplicity, communication, feedback, and courage. It works by bringing the whole team toget(09:25)
gigix对大家说: 这就是XP的四大要素：简单、交流、反馈、激励(09:26)
cber对大家说: welcome to notyy(09:26)
notyy对大家说: 不会吧。来了这么多人了啊(09:26)
notyy对大家说: 我才刚来。呵呵。(09:26)
gis007对大家说: 如何实现呢？(09:26)
cber对大家说: 正好来了高手救命：）(09:27)
tensile对gigix说: first, what is XP.“简单、交流、反馈、激励”(09:27)
joe_lee对大家说: what's the mean of courage?(09:27)
notyy对大家说: 勇气(09:27)
notyy对大家说: 就是在有充分的测试和队友的支持下，敢于修正代码，优化设计(09:28)
tensile很高兴地对gigix说: continue.(09:28)
holyfire对cber说: 我想知道反馈的实现和作用(09:29)
gis007对大家说: notyy,next(09:29)
tensile很高兴地对Charity_Zhou说: how to get courage?(09:29)
notyy对大家说: next what？我刚来(09:29)
gigix对大家说: Extreme Programming teams use a simple form of planning and tracking to decide what should be done next and to predict when the project will be done. Focused on business(09:29)
gigix对大家说: Extreme Programmers work together in pairs and as a group, with simple design and obsessively tested code, improving the design continually to keep it always just right f(09:30)
Charity_Zhou对大家说: in umlchina,a book XPInstall,or www.extremprogramming.org(09:30)
tensile很高兴地对Charity_Zhou说: what?(09:31)
notyy对大家说: 还有半小时时间。大家都准备好e文问题了吗？(09:31)
gis007对大家说: 是不是不象up那样有统一的规范标准(09:31)
gigix对大家说: 对了！notyy是XPCHINA的吧？(09:32)
notyy对大家说: 有的。有很明确的“先做什么，后做什么“(09:32)
tensile很高兴地对umlchina说: welcome.(09:32)
notyy对大家说: 我是xpchina的组长。(09:32)
gis007对大家说: 很高兴结识大家。(09:32)
tensile很高兴地对notyy说: hehe. good. what time need me.(09:33)
gigix对大家说: 各位非主持人，请用绝对黑色，谢谢。(09:33)
liuxf666对大家说: 一般XP从哪里入手呢？(09:33)
notyy对大家说: liuxf666你在公司处于什么地位呢？(09:33)
liuxf666对大家说: 开发人员也兼任一些项目的协调人(09:34)
notyy对大家说: 不管怎么样，都要先从培训入手。(09:34)
tensile对大家说: i want to join ur group.(09:35)
notyy对大家说: 找出大家都知道的存在的问题(09:35)
notyy对大家说: 然后指出xp解决问题的方法，获得大家的支持(09:35)
liuxf666对大家说: 培训？我是想问实施的方式吧(09:35)
cber对大家说: notyy在上海哪处？(09:35)
notyy对大家说: 如果没有相应的地位，那还是从自己入手改变(09:35)
超时空突击队员进入聊天室.(09:35)
notyy对大家说: cber，哪处？(09:36)
liuxf666对大家说: 我想是的(09:36)
notyy对大家说: 大家可以试试用e文聊天吗？(09:36)
tensile很高兴地对notyy说: i want to join ur group.(09:37)
liuxf666对大家说: ok(09:37)
zengdabin对大家说: of course(09:37)
notyy对大家说: just come,welcome(09:37)
notyy对大家说: hehe ,hope kent can understand the meaning of "hehe"(09:37)
cber对大家说: now begin in english:)(09:37)
michaelth对大家说: hello, notyy(09:38)
michaelth对大家说: good morning room!(09:38)
liuxf666对大家说: I begin XP from unit test and refactoring(09:38)
notyy对大家说: liuxf666,that good,but maybe you can ask kent ,the question(09:38)
cber对大家说: I can only use refactoring now:((09:38)
notyy对大家说: cber ,why not unittest?(09:39)
notyy对大家说: who is recording the chat history?(09:39)
liuxf666对大家说: cber,but i think no unit test no refactoring(09:39)
notyy对大家说: anyone?(09:39)
gigix对大家说: Because cber uses C++ and unit test in C++ has some difficulties.(09:40)
cber对大家说: because the team members don't agree with me and there havn't a good test tool for C++,(09:40)
tensile很高兴地对zengdabin说: nice to meet u here.(09:40)
yhufo对大家说: how many people can chat here togather!(09:40)
java.net对大家说: notyy,I come(09:41)
itsld对cber说: i have sympathize(09:41)
michaelth对大家说: i think there is no need to recording, simply save the page ok(09:41)
liuxf666对大家说: i use c++ too and i think there are not good tools for c++(09:41)
notyy对大家说: agree,because it will be very dangerous(09:41)
liuxf666对大家说: but no unit test we can't do refactoring for qulity reason(09:41)
joe_lee对大家说: who knows the mean of "silver bullet"?(09:41)
cber对大家说: anyway, test-first-design is a power tool in my developing(09:41)
smilemac对大家说: Hi, I have ameeting at 10:00, could anyone propose my question to Kent Beck(09:41)
lovelybug28对大家说: when does the chat start?(09:41)
zengdabin对tensile说: nice to meet u too(09:41)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: first, what is XP.(09:41)
yhufo对大家说: why use c++ tools is dangerous(09:42)
liuxf666对大家说: I have a meeting too :((09:42)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: second, how to use XP.(09:42)
lovelybug28对大家说: ???(09:42)
notyy对大家说: smilemac,your questions?(09:42)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: second , how to use XP.(09:42)
itsld对大家说: the net is busy(09:42)
smilemac对大家说: Why no one answer me(09:42)
notyy对大家说: tensile,maybe you should read some materials in xpchina group(09:43)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: thans.notty,(09:43)
liuxf666对大家说: notty,where are you? I am at shanghai(09:43)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: but i don't know xpchina group.(09:43)
liuxf666对notyy说: where are you? I am at shanghai(09:44)
notyy对liuxf666说: I am at shanghai too(09:44)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: i also in Pdong.(09:44)
joe_lee对notyy说: do you know what is "silver bullet" in software engineering?(09:44)
michaelth对大家说: notyy, could you please make a brief explanation about XP, i think there are many who ant to listen(09:44)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: Puong(09:44)
liuxf666对notyy说: it's so good,maybe we can talk under net later(09:44)
yhufo对notyy说: I am at shanghai too!(09:44)
smilemac对大家说: 1.Could you tell me the main difference among the XP, the incremental development and the evolution development model(09:45)
tomxu007对大家说: hello, guys(09:45)
cber对大家说: notyy & liuxf666: don't forget me if you want to talk:)(09:45)
notyy对大家说: good question(09:45)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: alas XP begin.(09:45)
liuxf666对cber说: that's all right(09:46)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: cber, how r u.(09:46)
smilemac对大家说: 2.Could you introduce some latest status of the XP practicing?(09:46)
notyy对大家说: so ,how many people are coming to ask questions?(09:46)
smilemac对notyy说: 2.Could you introduce some latest status of the XP practicing?(09:47)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: gigix, why black?(09:47)
notyy对大家说: xp is a discipline(纪律) of software development based on values of simplicity,communication,feedback,and courage.(09:47)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: sorry,gigix, thanx.(09:47)
gigix对大家说: Only chairman uses red, our uses black. hehe.(09:47)
superlong对大家说: say hello to everyone(09:47)
xlp223对大家说: hi,here is hot now.(09:47)
smilemac对notyy说: 3.Are there any real projects that are implemented with XP process? How about the effect.(09:48)
michaelth对yhufo说: hello(09:49)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: //buddha(09:49)
smilemac对notyy说: Hi, notyy, could you help me to ask Kent the three questions?(09:49)
notyy对大家说: smilemac,I've got your questions(09:49)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: smilemas, good.(09:49)
liuxf666对大家说: i must go to my meeting now(09:49)
smilemac对notyy说: Thanks alot(09:49)
notyy对大家说: smilemac,sure(09:49)
taoxie对大家说: are you guys waiting for Kent Beck?(09:49)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: //caress(09:50)
notyy对大家说: there have been 36 persons here(09:50)
yhufo对michaelth说: ni hao(09:50)
notyy对大家说: tensile,pls don't .....(09:50)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: pls continue.(09:50)
michaelth对yhufo说: i am in shanghai, too(09:50)
michaelth对yhufo说: nice to meet you(09:51)
yhufo对michaelth说: where are you(09:51)
michaelth对yhufo说: huaihai road(09:51)
michaelth对yhufo说: but today i will resign :)(09:51)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: //xinku3(09:51)
tooliu对大家说: //xinku2(09:52)
michaelth对yhufo说: u?(09:52)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: gigix,//xinku2(09:52)
yhufo对michaelth说: hong qiao(09:52)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: //xinku4(09:52)
michaelth对yhufo说: engage java or others?(09:52)
yhufo对michaelth说: vb java asp(09:53)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: holy fire,thanx.(09:53)
xlp223对大家说: thanks for umlchina,notty.it is a chance for studying XP(09:53)
smilemac对notyy说: Hi, my meeting is delayed to 10:30, I can ask by myself, thank you anyway..(09:53)
notyy对大家说: what questions should be asked early,what should be later?or just go ..?(09:53)
notyy对大家说: that's good!(09:53)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: ok.(09:54)
superlong对大家说: very agree with xlp233(09:54)
yhufo对michaelth说: what about you(09:54)
ygf2001进入聊天室.(09:54)
michaelth对大家说: java(09:54)
taoxie对大家说: How is the XP practice applied in China programmer (especially among you guys)?:)(09:55)
haixiao66进入聊天室.(09:55)
yhufo对michaelth说: cool!(09:55)
haogege进入聊天室.(09:55)
michaelth对大家说: we are founding a open software foundation here(09:55)
xlp223对大家说: 问题的顺序应由notty稍微安排一下。当然不能太拘泥。如何？(09:55)
abanger进入聊天室.(09:56)
superlong对大家说: oh,we can discuss a viaual project(09:56)
smilemac对notyy说: I agree(09:56)
ygf2001进入聊天室.(09:56)
notyy对大家说: I think the questions about the difference between xp and other incremental process should be asked first.(09:57)
yhufo对michaelth说: ok!that is great!(09:57)
smilemac对notyy说: Thanks(09:57)
notyy对大家说: most of us have some common questions(09:57)
taoxie对michaelth说: is there any relationship of your open software foundation with Co-Create Software League?(09:57)
umlchina对大家说: 聊天颜色约定：提问及参与讨论：草原之蓝,嘉宾回答和主持人发言：正宗喜红,互相说话：绝对黑色(09:58)
notyy对大家说: I just want the meet can be smooth(09:58)
simplebest进入聊天室.(09:58)
umlchina对大家说: 交流建议：1.大家把问题事先用英语准备好。2.无论是提问，还是互相说话，请用英语。3. 不要使用表情符号，以免出现太多中文信息，干扰嘉宾视线。(09:58)
notyy对大家说: 呵呵，提问和参与讨论的，请换草原之蓝了。(09:58)
wlcumt离开了聊天室.(09:59)
tooliu对大家说: I dont think our meeting could be smooth(09:59)
xlp223对大家说: yes,umlchina.(09:59)
seekbeam进入聊天室.(09:59)
notyy对大家说: I think so too(09:59)
tooliu对大家说: I am afraid our question not to be understood by native speaker(10:00)
Charity_Zhou对大家说: is kent beck here now?(10:00)
umlchina对大家说: 稍等一会(10:00)
smilemac对tooliu说: Or everyone send his questions to notyy and let him ask(10:00)
umlchina对大家说: wait a minute(10:00)
taoxie对大家说: don't worry... Kent is supposed to be robust to our language(10:00)
notyy对大家说: 但希望问题可以从“xp解决什么问题？”，“xp和其他方法的区别”，“xp的成功案例”，“xp如何事实”，“xp的将来”这样进行。(10:01)
notyy对大家说: maybe will be good(10:01)
litter_ok进入聊天室.(10:01)
fpeng进入聊天室.(10:01)
gis007对大家说: yes.yes(10:01)
superlong对大家说: tell me that,xp have some different with other develop process(10:01)
sky-walker进入聊天室.(10:02)
notyy对大家说: 所以希望大家组织一下自己的问题。以便kent能做出最好的回答。(10:02)
chinafloat对大家说: what different between Rup and xp(10:02)
robincn进入聊天室.(10:02)
litter_ok进入聊天室.(10:02)
超时空突击队员进入聊天室.(10:02)
gigix对大家说: 我的问题是：我觉得XP不行。notyy你说我该什么时候问？(10:02)
notyy对大家说: It's really a good chance,so don't waste it.(10:02)
notyy对大家说: gigix,xp的成功案例问完后，呵呵。如何？(10:03)
simplebest对大家说: I think for most of chinese programmer, XP is better than UML(10:03)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: the first question. notty, how to use XP in my software?(10:03)
wlcumt进入聊天室.(10:03)
java.net进入聊天室.(10:03)
taoxie对大家说: Kent is late...:((10:03)
smilemac对leoyliu说: When will Kent come(10:04)
java.net进入聊天室.(10:04)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: where is kent?(10:04)
smilemac对大家说: in USA(10:04)
leoyliu对大家说: i don't know(10:04)
dggh进入聊天室.(10:04)
notyy对大家说: pls be patient(10:04)
simplebest对大家说: I don't think XP is not only use for software, it's a series practices to finish your software(10:05)
guxl对大家说: Hello, everybody.(10:05)
taoxie对大家说: Has anyone teach Kent how to login this chatting room? Has he tried before?(10:05)
haixiao66对notyy说: I'm shorthorn with XP.how to start.....(10:05)
nightwatcher进入聊天室.(10:05)
smilemac对大家说: Is Kent here, I think that we don't make him scared(10:05)
dggh进入聊天室.(10:05)
notyy对大家说: 但希望问题可以从“xp解决什么问题？”，“xp和其他方法的区别”，“xp的成功案例”，“xp如何事实”，“xp的将来”这样进行。(10:01)(10:05)
拨云见日进入聊天室.(10:05)
xlp223对gigix说: gigix,why do you translate the the article about pattern&xp?(10:05)
gis007对大家说: Is simplebest ken?(10:05)

kentbeck进入聊天室.(10:06)
notyy对大家说: 组织一下自己的问题，在合适的阶段提出，不要大家互相干扰，结果。。。(10:06)
notyy对大家说: hello,kentbeck!(10:06)
cber对大家说: welcome Mr Kent(10:06)
simplebest对大家说: I agree with notty. What?Why? should always be first(10:06)
nightwatcher进入聊天室.(10:06)
notyy对大家说: welcome mr kent(10:06)
yhufo对大家说: welcome mr kent(10:06)
china_why对大家说: welcome(10:06)
gis007对大家说: welcome(10:06)
java.net进入聊天室.(10:06)
chinafloat对大家说: welcome mr kentbeck(10:07)
kentbeck对大家说: Kent here(10:07)
guxl对大家说: I've got a question, "What's the relationship between AM and XP?"(10:07)
sliuhao对大家说: welcome(10:07)
taoxie对kentbeck说: Hi, Bent....finally see you show up..(10:07)
joe_lee对notyy说: what's the main difference between XP and other method(e.g. Rational RUP)? thanks!(10:07)
tensile很高兴地对大家说: nict to meet u, kent.(10:07)
smilemac对大家说: welcome(10:07)
superlong对大家说: welcome(10:07)
notyy对大家说: so question begins now...(10:07)
tensile进入聊天室.(10:07)
joe_lee对notyy说: nice to see you(10:07)
wh1978进入聊天室.(10:07)
notyy对大家说: go!guys!(10:07)
cber对大家说: notyy, you should use red now(10:07)
joe_lee对notyy说: what's the main difference between XP and other method(e.g. Rational RUP)? thanks!(10:07)
hanson_yi进入聊天室.(10:07)
notyy对大家说: now ,question begins...(10:08)
kentbeck对大家说: Moderator-- how do I pick which question to answer?(10:08)
taoxie对kentbeck说: I have a question about the relationship between XP and product line engineering, what is your opinion on combining them togher?(10:08)
talkchen进入聊天室.(10:08)
zhanjf进入聊天室.(10:08)
smilemac对大家说: Could you tell me the main difference among the XP, the incremental development and the evolution development model?(10:08)
skyin进入聊天室.(10:08)
kill14000微笑着对大家说: How to test the compenents?(10:08)
umlchina对大家说: welcome, Mr. Beck, I am Jiayu Pan, and the compere is notyy(10:08)
gigix对大家说: xlp223, I saw your words...(10:08)
skyin对大家说: hi,everybody. I am late.(10:08)
robincn对notyy说: 我们的嘉宾来了吗？(10:08)
tensile对kentbeck说: first,how to use XP in my item?(10:09)
tooliu对大家说: Order!!!(10:09)
viery进入聊天室.(10:09)
kentbeck对大家说: Also, do I have the right color? I'm red-green color deficient.(10:09)
gigix对大家说: I prefer to use design patterns design up front...(10:09)
Charity_Zhou对大家说: Give an order,please,questions?(10:09)
gigix对大家说: Hello, Mr. Beck!!(10:09)
java.net进入聊天室.(10:09)
luteng进入聊天室.(10:09)
Charity_Zhou对大家说: hi,beck,your color seems dark,change a bright one please(10:09)
tensile对kentbeck说: first, how to use XP in my item?(10:09)
umlchina对大家说: Mr. beck, you just select a person from the list on left and answer his question(10:09)
notyy对大家说: kent ,you should use "red"(10:10)
toyu进入聊天室.(10:10)
kentbeck对大家说: I'll try this color(10:10)
tensile对kentbeck说: second the difference between XP and UML?(10:10)
joe_lee对notyy说: what's the main difference between XP and other method(e.g. Rational RUP)? thanks!(10:10)
umlchina对大家说: Mr. beck, no, the right color is red, 2 option lower than this one(10:10)
gigix对大家说: Can you still remember me? I'm the editor of "Programmer".(10:10)
kentbeck对大家说: To answer a basic question-- XP and UML(10:10)
umlchina对大家说: to use which color is up to you(10:10)
kentbeck对大家说: XP is a social system for software development, UML is a notation for describing software(10:10)
killerapp进入聊天室.(10:10)
smilemac对大家说: Kent, could you tell me the main difference among the XP, the incremental development and the evolution development model?(10:11)
kentbeck对大家说: You can use UML inside of XP, but teams get along fine without lots of documents besides the code and tests(10:11)
tensile对kentbeck说: software development?(10:11)
yhufo对kentbeck说: Is document improtant in XP? what type of document should be write(10:11)
swishu进入聊天室.(10:12)
superlong对大家说: Mr beck,we can discuss a visual project,how to use XP in it?(10:12)
zhanjf进入聊天室.(10:12)
tensile对kentbeck说: pls continue.(10:12)
kentbeck对大家说: The documents you must write are the code and tests(10:12)
taoxie对kentbeck说: How can XP scale? I read part of the Refactoring book, get to know it is nice for small scale accomodate for changes, how can it accomodate changes in architecture scale?(10:12)
tooliu对大家说: Kent how about the relationship between WinDNA and XP(10:12)
smilemac对大家说: Mr Beck, could you tell me the main difference among the XP, the incremental development and the evolution development model?(10:12)
tensile对kentbeck说: third, what is the most important?(10:12)
notyy对kentbeck说: what problem does xp resolve?(10:13)
babysloth进入聊天室.(10:13)
kentbeck对大家说: It's not that XP programmers don't think visually, they just don't usually save the pictures(10:13)
kentbeck对大家说: I'll answer the one about what problem XP solves(10:13)
ee96pyg进入聊天室.(10:13)
chinafloat对大家说: CONTINUE(10:13)
taoxie对kentbeck说: But without many documents, how can XP program be maintained or transfered to non-developer team to maintain?(10:13)
kentbeck对大家说: XP is good when you have lots of uncertainty about the requirements(10:13)
viery流口水地对kentbeck说: Mr Benk,it is said that XP is more suitable to a couple of developers.Do you think so?(10:14)
dominictang进入聊天室.(10:14)
smilemac对大家说: Could you tell me the main difference among the XP, the incremental development and the evolution development model?(10:14)
kentbeck对大家说: XP gets you a concrete, running system quickly, and lets you modify it at a fairly constant pace(10:14)
yhufo对kentbeck说: but 'crc card' and 'user story' is not code or tests(10:14)
taoxie对kentbeck说: But product line engineering also aims at this focusing on program family.(10:14)
tensile对kentbeck说: sorry, but i don't still understand what u said? (what problem XP solves)(10:14)
kentbeck对大家说: That way, you don't have to know everything before you begin(10:14)
kooer进入聊天室.(10:14)
tensile对kentbeck说: why?(10:15)
kentbeck对大家说: Regarding CRC cards and stories-- those aren't documents. You don't save them forever. You gain insight from them, then discard them.(10:15)
yhufo对kentbeck说: can you tell we the best web-site about XP you think !(10:15)
smilemac对大家说: 3. Could you tell me the main difference among the XP, the incremental development and the evolution development model?(10:16)
kentbeck对大家说: The best web site for XP is the one you will write after you have tried it.(10:16)
joe_lee对kentbeck说: Is XP a recursive process?(10:16)
Charity_Zhou对kentbeck说: Don't keep them? In china ,we can not(10:16)
kentbeck对大家说: In the meantime, xprogramming.com and extremeprogramming.org are both good places to start(10:16)
chinafloat对大家说: crc card is just used to communicate between developer and users(10:16)
Geoffrey进入聊天室.(10:16)
xlp223对kentbeck说: 1.Does XP somewhat over-emphasize consciousness of every contributor?(10:17)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: recursive process. Yes, or I might say fractal. At the scale of a year you say what you want (stories) and then do it.(10:17)
smilemac对大家说: Are there any successful project with XP?(10:17)
tensile对kentbeck说: i'm sorry, i can't understand what u said about XP.(10:17)
kentbeck对大家说: At the scale of a minute you say what you want (unit test) and do it (code).(10:17)
notyy对大家说: so xp is used in changing requirment project,but why not other process,like usp?(10:17)
zqheng进入聊天室.(10:17)
notyy对大家说: so xp is used in changing requirment project,but why not other process,like usp?((10:17)
kentbeck对大家说: This fractal breakdown is quite deliberate.(10:18)
linkspeed进入聊天室.(10:18)
taoxie对kentbeck说: you mention unit test. I agree rerun all unit testing is reasonable, how is running all integrated test cases reasonable?(10:18)
tensile对kentbeck说: pls continue.(10:18)
joe_lee对kentbeck说: thanks!(10:18)
kentbeck对大家说: Can xlp223 ask his question again. I don't understand why you wouldn't want to emphasize every contributor.(10:19)
yhufo对kentbeck说: if we have no document,I don't know how we can control the changes in the software.I think we must doucmentation it !(10:19)
john_zhu进入聊天室.(10:19)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: running all the tests. If you make decent coverage fast enough, you can run them all the time.(10:19)
skyin对大家说: Mr. beck, is there any commercial level intergration software?(10:19)
notyy对大家说: xlp223 means maybe xp rely on the self restrictive of programmer too muc(10:20)
kentbeck对大家说: When you say "control changes", I would say "encourage changes". Control comes from the tests, the pairing, sitting together, and continuous integration.(10:20)
illfly进入聊天室.(10:20)
litter_ok进入聊天室.(10:20)
smilemac对大家说: How about XP doing on risk management(10:21)
kentbeck对大家说: XP works well with disciplined programmers, but if you are not feeling disciplined today, don't worry.(10:21)
notyy对大家说: should we really encourage changes?(10:21)
xlp223对大家说: thanks.notty(10:21)
taoxie对kentbeck说: For the big project, test case pools are large and in addition, test case structure-coverage criterion is not enough alone...(10:21)
kentbeck对大家说: Your pair partner might catch you, or your integration won't work and you will have to throw away your code.(10:21)
dggh进入聊天室.(10:21)
dggh对大家说: would you talk about xp practise games?(10:21)
waltersac进入聊天室.(10:21)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: xp games. I do an exercise where people draw a picture of a coffeemaker. There are better games out there.(10:22)
dzzh进入聊天室.(10:22)
gigix对kentbeck说: Mr. Beck, I think we must carefully design at first. If we ignore the importance of design, XP(or refactoring) can't improve the whole project. How do you think about?(10:22)
拨云见日对大家说: ?(10:22)
kentbeck对大家说: Some folks in London build Lego robots. Joshua Kerievsky has the team write a screenplay (script for a movie).(10:22)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: design. I knew this would come up. I, too, insist that we need to carefully design.(10:23)
kentbeck对大家说: I would just rather wait and do it after I had some experience, rather than design based on speculation.(10:23)
smilemac对大家说: Is pair-programming necessary(10:23)
kentbeck对大家说: Up front design is a positive feedback loop. The more experience you have, the more you can think to design up front, until you are completely useless.(10:24)
tensile对kentbeck说: however the question is how to design?(10:24)
nightwatcher进入聊天室.(10:24)
拨云见日对大家说: ?(10:24)
yhufo对kentbeck说: At pair programming two person should often change his role?1 day or 2 day(10:24)
思妹儿进入聊天室.(10:24)
joe_lee对kentbeck说: If no document, how we maintain the software?(10:24)
taoxie对kentbeck说: So did you mean without spending time to predict future changes in design, just do it and adapt the code gradually to accomodate the changes?(10:24)
zhanjf进入聊天室.(10:24)
xlp223对kentbeck说: Does XP somewhat over-emphasize self restrictive of every contributor?(10:24)
dggh进入聊天室.(10:24)
kentbeck对大家说: Another way to use that design experience is to wait with your good ideas until they are obviously, immediately useful.(10:24)
skyin对大家说: mr. beck, how about GUI design and test?(10:25)
tooliu对大家说: Kent, you say ecourage changes, if that means we neednt know the requirements so much first as before?(10:25)
yhufo对kentbeck说: I mean how often,one day or tow day.(10:25)
john_zhu对大家说: kent ,what's u think "No Silver Bullet"?(10:25)
tensile对kentbeck说: can u tell us that ur experience on XP?(10:25)
mmrgood进入聊天室.(10:25)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: documents. You have two very valuable documents--the code and the tests. If the tests always run 100% and never are allowed to regress, what else do you need?(10:25)
ciketie进入聊天室.(10:25)
china_why离开了聊天室.(10:26)
xlp223对kentbeck说: i know.notty(10:26)
james.bao进入聊天室.(10:26)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: pair switching. I switch 2-4 times per day when I'm on a bigger team. I can't pair for more than 6 hours in a day, because the concentration is so intense.(10:26)
taoxie对kentbeck说: For documents, how could others, say, non-owner of the code, to understand and maintain it gracefully without enough document?(10:26)
xlp223对kentbeck说: Since XP has no experts,what role should XP leader play amongprogrammers,customers,manager?(10:26)
xlp223对kentbeck说: Since XP has no experts,what role should XP leader play amongprogrammers,customers,manager?(10:26)
smilemac对kentbeck说: How about set a role responsble for documentation(10:27)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: experts. XP has experts, but their roles are not fixed from above. Expertise emerges from the experiences chosen by everyone on the team. Encouraging this emergence(10:27)
ssrrll进入聊天室.(10:27)
kentbeck对大家说: is the role of management.(10:27)
zhanjf进入聊天室.(10:28)
yhufo对kentbeck说: In pair programming how when one coding an other one do what,just see and talk to another!(10:28)
Charity_Zhou对kentbeck说: the role of the person in the team?(10:28)
skyin对大家说: do programmers need to learn the customer's domain knowledge?(10:28)
kentbeck对大家说: Pair programming is not watching someone else code. It is coding as a conversation.(10:28)
waltersac对大家说: hi(10:28)
zhanjf进入聊天室.(10:28)
kentbeck对大家说: The keyboard switches back and forth at least every couple of minutes.(10:29)
notyy对大家说: kent ,you meaning discussion--coding--discussion ---and so on?(10:29)
xlp223对kentbeck说: How is every contributor assigned to fit for pair programming? what pratices does XP have about it ?(10:29)
sky-walker离开了聊天室.(10:29)
smilemac对kentbeck说: In my program, the important module is always doing on with pair-programing(10:30)
dggh对kentbeck说: Would you like to answer,how to deal with the "Programmers have little contact with customer"?(10:30)
kentbeck对大家说: When pairing, you'll talk about ideas, try one, suggest another test, draw a little sketch of your next idea, code that up, refactor a little and on and on.(10:30)
notyy对大家说: yeah!I have the some question,eg,a web project,how can webpage designer be paired with programmers?(10:30)
skyin对大家说: every one has it's own task,right? then how to assign the work when they pair-programming?(10:30)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: programmer contact with customers. I think this is so common, and it doesn't work well. That's why I said XP is a social system for development.(10:30)
kentbeck对大家说: Hourly contact with the people whose lives are affected by the software you write makes everyone pay attention.(10:31)
aug进入聊天室.(10:31)
yhufo对kentbeck说: any tools for XP,Introduce some!(10:31)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: task assignment. This morning we will work together on your task. This afternoon you can help me with yours.(10:31)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: tools. I use Eclipse for Java and I really like it. I use IntelliJ sometimes, also.(10:32)
illfly离开了聊天室.(10:32)
kentbeck对大家说: JUnit or its siblings in other languages are very helpful for unit testing and building acceptance test infrastructure.(10:32)
xlp223对kentbeck说: Every pair programming has its unique style and level,then how can refactoring make it consistent or balance? and person or group to do refactoring need be arranged in ad(10:33)
skyin对大家说: :^) I just begin learnning how to use eclipse(10:33)
swishu进入聊天室.(10:33)
dggh对kentbeck说: Would you like to answer:how to deal with the "Programmers have little contact with customer"?(10:33)
lgpj进入聊天室.(10:33)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: refactoring. Every person singing in a choir has their own voice. How do they make music together? They decide that it is more important to sound good together thanb(10:34)
taoxie对kentbeck说: Is there any academic research work going on around XP? Only it is just industry-oriented?(10:34)
joe_lee进入聊天室.(10:34)
skyin对大家说: hi, Mr.beck. tell me some software for integration(10:34)
holyfire进入聊天室.(10:34)
smilemac对kentbeck说: Does the XP has any explicit risk warning system?(10:34)
kentbeck对大家说: to sing "their way". The same is true on teams of programmers. It must be more important to everyone for the team to be successful than for any individual to shine.(10:34)
tensile对kentbeck说: social system for development?(10:34)
umlchina进入聊天室.(10:35)
skyin对大家说: www.eclipse.org(10:35)
java.net进入聊天室.(10:35)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: contact with customers. First, the whole team sits together in one big room-programmers, managers, customers, analysts, testers, user documentation, interaction desig(10:35)
smilemac对kentbeck说: could you talk about risk management(10:35)
notyy对大家说: I think dggh mean ,if programmer can't contact the customer,what should be done?(10:35)
拨云见日对kentbeck说: xp and uml is the same popurse?(10:36)
awarmer进入聊天室.(10:36)
kentbeck对大家说: Second, the "customer team" is producing acceptance tests that the programming team must pass. Learning how to pass those tests requires conversation.(10:36)
joe_lee对kentbeck说: Whether team building is a important work in XP(10:36)
notyy对大家说: its really difficult to arrange an "on site customer" in some situation(10:36)
tensile对kentbeck说: How to use CMM2 in XP?(10:36)
taoxie对kentbeck说: For acceptance tests, did you mean test case generation? kind of specification-based testing?(10:37)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: no customer. Get one, or prepare to fail. The old, Taylorist social structure for software development doesn't work. Make a new one.(10:37)
yhufo对kentbeck说: why xp need no document!(10:37)
lrsbai进入聊天室.(10:37)
notyy对大家说: yhufo,the question has be answered(10:38)
kentbeck对大家说: XP needs two documents for sure--code and tests. If your team discovers it needs more, then write them. Most teams discover they don't need other internal documentation.(10:38)
Charity_Zhou对kentbeck说: Need the customers know some tips of XP? Such as User Story?(10:38)
skyin对大家说: if some one refactor the interface and the corresponding test,how about others who also used the old interface?(10:38)
awarmer进入聊天室.(10:38)
xlp223对kentbeck说: and person or group to do refactoring need be arranged in ad(10:38)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: "on-site customer". If it is important for software development to work well, sitting together is absolutely essential. If it is not important for it to go well,(10:39)
kentbeck对大家说: perhaps the project should be cancelled.(10:39)
taoxie对kentbeck说: It occurs to me that you said the customer is aiming at Contract-style project, how about XP application in shrinkwrapped product development?(10:39)
notyy对大家说: good question,should we educate customer first?(10:39)
Charity_Zhou对kentbeck说: The customers must know how to write User Stories,i think(10:39)
simplebest进入聊天室.(10:39)
simplebest对大家说: I want to learn what's your opinion about design pattern?(10:39)
kentbeck对大家说: I just visited Iona Technologies, where we have 800 people learning to do XP.(10:39)
yhufo对kentbeck说: how to get the customer requirements(10:39)
zer进入聊天室.(10:40)
fdu_se01进入聊天室.(10:40)
gigix对大家说: Mr. Kerievsky write some articles about "Refactoring to Patterns". Does this mean that design patterns is important to XP? Can you explain the relation between them?(10:40)
Charity_Zhou对kentbeck说: Need the customers know some tips of XP? Such as User Story?(10:40)
tensile对kentbeck说: i should how to learn XP?(10:40)
tooliu对kentbeck说: Would you mind to explain the WinDNA and XP?(10:40)
charles_y进入聊天室.(10:40)
kentbeck对大家说: This is definitely a shrinkwrap company. The customer team (marketing, testing, usability, customer service) is larger than with in-house development.(10:40)
tensile对kentbeck说: and How to use XP well in my item?(10:40)
kentbeck对大家说: Other than that, everyone agrees that software development goes more smoothly with a single stream of requirements (stories).(10:41)
zhujigang进入聊天室.(10:41)
fou_hu进入聊天室.(10:41)
xlp223对kentbeck说: person or group to do refactoring need be arranged in addition or not?(10:41)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: WinDNA and XP. This is XP as in Extreme Programming, not the operating system.(10:41)
james.bao进入聊天室.(10:41)
kill14000离开了聊天室.(10:41)
Charity_Zhou对kentbeck说: Please answer me the question:Need the customers know some tips of XP? Such as User Story?(10:41)
waltzor进入聊天室.(10:42)
zer微笑着对kentbeck说: please talk about test?(10:42)
skyin对大家说: I noticed the crystal method which has more roles than xp, need we add tester,gui designer and more roles in xp team?(10:42)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: refactoring. Design is everyone's responsibility. When we are sitting together and we see the need to refactor, we just refactor. If you ever needed to schedule it,(10:42)
smilemac对kentbeck说: I feel that XP is very similiar to evolution process, could you explainthe difference?(10:42)
kentbeck对大家说: you would have waited too long.(10:42)
Charity_Zhou离开了聊天室.(10:42)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: notty, what is refactor?(i don't know)(10:42)
kentbeck对大家说: Do customers need to know about XP? Absolutely. They are part of the team, so they need to know how the team works.(10:43)
notyy对大家说: tensile,maybe we discuss it later(10:43)
taoxie对kentbeck说: What specific probelms in your mind when XP is faced by scaling challenges?(10:43)
oguh进入聊天室.(10:43)
kentbeck对大家说: Stories and acceptance tests are the two most important things to teach them first, then release (3-12 month) and iteration (1-3 week) planning.(10:43)
tomxu007离开了聊天室.(10:44)
simplebest对大家说: I want to know whether you use design pattern or not?(10:44)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: notty, thanx.(10:44)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: evolution. XP certainly uses the metaphor of evolution or growth. However, it prescribes many practices to support continued growth over a long period.(10:44)
gigix对大家说: Mr. Beck, can you explain the relation between XP and design patterns?(10:44)
kentbeck对大家说: The evolutionary delivery work of Gilb is similar in concept, but he doesn't say much about how to achieve his goals.(10:44)
xlp223对kentbeck说: Design Patterns can reduce the refactoring's pressure from simple design?(10:44)
zhujigang对大家说: Dear Beck, our team DO use pair programming, but what would a pair do if they have finished their story, but others have not yet? Do they need to wait for other peoples?(10:45)
Charity_Zhou进入聊天室.(10:45)
fpeng对大家说: What is the difference between release planning and iteration planning?(10:45)
阿楼进入聊天室.(10:45)
whoo进入聊天室.(10:45)
kentbeck对大家说: XP says-- test first, pair, sit together, integrate hourly, and then you'll be able to grow and evolve your software.(10:45)
skyin对大家说: it seems xp is more suitable for customer-oriented application software, how about other?(10:45)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: customer-oriented. What other kind is there? If there are no customers, why write it?(10:45)
skyin对大家说: i mean fundation software and some research software(10:45)
zhujigang对kentbeck说: Mr, Beck, and we have now four engineers, but must Pair Programming have even number people to work?(10:46)
taoxie对kentbeck说: Is there any similarity between XP and MS's dailybuild?(10:46)
notyy对大家说: back to design.a good metaphor is really hard to discover,how do you solve it ?(10:46)
ciketie进入聊天室.(10:46)
dggh快要哭地对kentbeck说: Does xp require everyone in teams to be a system-analyse expert?It's too difficult!(10:46)
fault进入聊天室.(10:46)
fpeng对kentbeck说: What is the difference between release planning and iteration planning?(10:46)
lilaoguai进入聊天室.(10:46)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: release and iteration. Releases synchronize with the business cycle, so they are 3-12 months long. Iterations synchronize with the need for engineers to have(10:46)
kentbeck对大家说: milestones, so they are 1-3 weeks long.(10:46)
liyimin进入聊天室.(10:47)
xlp223对kentbeck说: what do you think about Design Patterns can reduce the refactoring's pressure from simple design?(10:47)
viery离开了聊天室.(10:47)
notyy对大家说: guys ,pls slow down.haha.(10:47)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: does everyone need to be an expert. The team needs systems analysis expertise, but that doesn't mean everyone needs to do it.(10:47)
Charity_Zhou对大家说: so i think XP has a more high request to the customers(10:47)
kentbeck对大家说: Likewise, the team might need database expertise, but 3-4 people would choose to have deep knowledge of databases while everyone else could help with a database task if(10:48)
kentbeck对大家说: necessary.(10:48)
Charity_Zhou对大家说: In some field,especially in china,that's a problem.(10:48)
skyin对大家说: when we use j2ee or jmx or javaspace and some more architecture, do we actually use their metaphors?(10:48)
daniel_liu进入聊天室.(10:48)
kentbeck对大家说: XP certainly asks more of the customers. They get visibility and control, and with that goes the responsibility for choosing the scope of the system.(10:48)
fpeng对kentbeck说: What relationship is between taskcard and iteration planning?(10:49)
tooliu对kentbeck说: XP means we have to teach our customers new method?(10:49)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: whan i use vc++, i should how to use XP?(10:49)
kentbeck对大家说: I don't think shifting responsibility is especially a problem in China, I think it's especially a problem everywhere.(10:49)
daniel_liu进入聊天室.(10:49)
fpeng对kentbeck说: :)(10:49)
zer对kentbeck说: how do you control your plan time ?(10:50)
kentbeck对大家说: We inherited our ideas of the social structure of work from Fred Taylor, a circa 1900 industrial engineer.(10:50)
dggh一脸迷茫地对kentbeck说: When team velocity is too slow ,what can we do?(10:50)
kentbeck对大家说: He assumed workers were lazy and stupid, so they needed someone to plan for them and someone to check on them (QA).(10:50)
brokendoor进入聊天室.(10:50)
kentbeck对大家说: This social structure doesn't work well for software, where most programmers are neither lazy nor stupid.(10:50)
aug离开了聊天室.(10:50)
Charity_Zhou对大家说: XP says customers write the User Story,but often we do ,and they check(10:51)
notyy对大家说: that's it!(10:51)
kentbeck对大家说: However, Taylor's paradigm runs so deep that most people don't even know where it came from.(10:51)
shenqw进入聊天室.(10:51)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: velocity. I just posted a long message to the XP mailing list on yahoo groups today.(10:51)
skyin对大家说: yeah, i got it(10:52)
kentbeck对大家说: The short answer is that the only way to get the team moving faster is to encourage greater team spirit.(10:52)
fpeng对kentbeck说: Is release planning for storycard and iteration planning is for taskcard assigned to programmer?(10:52)
ye_michael进入聊天室.(10:52)
joe_lee对kentbeck说: Does XP fit to a large project?(10:52)
simplebest对kentbeck说: I want to learn whether you use Design pattern.Thanks.(10:52)
simplebest对kentbeck说: I want to learn whether you use Design pattern.Thanks.(10:52)
fault离开了聊天室.(10:53)
guxl进入聊天室.(10:53)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: pairing. Every iteration each programmer signs up for a few tasks. If one is finished, start another one, or help your partner start one of his.(10:53)
shamusafari进入聊天室.(10:53)
taoxie对kentbeck说: What CASE tool do you think is in need but not available in XP?(10:53)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: design patterns. I absolutely use them. If you look at JUnit, there are patterns everywhere. It is one of the densest pieces of design I've ever done.(10:53)
重粒子进入聊天室.(10:53)
tensile进入聊天室.(10:53)
kentbeck对大家说: However, the patterns were applied as they were needed, not because we thought they might be useful.(10:54)
lztang进入聊天室.(10:54)
yhufo对kentbeck说: did every one(in the team) should test the software(10:54)
skyin对大家说: do you think xp is similar to 'learning organization' in managment domain?(10:54)
kentbeck对大家说: We would write a test, get it running, then notice the code would be cleaner if we introduced a pattern.(10:54)
kentbeck对大家说: We would refactor to put that pattern in place. Four years later we're still doing the same thing.(10:54)
xlp223对kentbeck说: Design Patterns can reduce the refactoring's pressure from simple design?(10:54)
kentbeck对大家说: Skilled designers can use the patterns to shorten design discussions from hours to seconds.(10:55)
notyy对大家说: should we start from simple design then refactor to designpattern,or just start with designpattern ?(10:55)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: learning organization. Yes. XP relies on the whole team continuously learning how better to interact.(10:55)
fdu_se01对kentbeck说: Hello, Mr Beck. I've read part of Taylor's book. There're something I'd like to illuminate. First, it doesn't seem to me that Taylor has discrimination against workers...(10:56)
skyin对大家说: how about martin folow's analysis patterns?(10:56)
adylee进入聊天室.(10:56)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: testing. If we want to align authority and responsibility, then every programmer, who has the authority to create defects, must also have the responsibility(10:56)
fpeng对kentbeck说: Do you think we need a software to help us manage the whole process of XP when we use it ?(10:56)
kentbeck对大家说: of testing. I see no way out of this puzzle otherwise.(10:56)
dggh咕咚，咕咚喝了几口闷酒，对kentbeck说: If the pressure is too heavy,programmer often abanon practices ,how to solute it?(10:56)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: software. One of the first things I did with XP was begin to write a project management tool. It was a waste of time.(10:57)
zer对kentbeck说: who does testing ?only programmer?(10:57)
joe_lee对kentbeck说: How to manage buga and modify requirement in XP?(10:57)
Charity_Zhou对大家说: where can we get the JUnit?(10:57)
kentbeck对大家说: XP is a new set of habits. Get the habits in place with the simplest possible infrastructure (pieces of paper on the wall is good).(10:57)
adylee对kentbeck说: what about do u think CMM vs XP?(10:57)
joe_lee对kentbeck说: How to manage bugs and modify requirement in XP?(10:57)
fpeng对kentbeck说: why?(10:58)
notyy对大家说: but why?(10:58)
kentbeck对大家说: Once the habits are in place and the team has found its spirit, you can begin to introduce computers without damaging the process.(10:58)
tooliu对kentbeck说: is it programmer's responsibilities to teach customers sth. when in XP?(10:58)
simplebest对kentbeck说: Which one of RUP and XP do you think more suitable for chinese programmer(10:58)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: CMM. CMM derives from a manufacturing mindset. It is copied from something called the Manufacturing Maturity Model.(10:58)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: how to Get the habits?(10:58)
notyy对大家说: 问问题请用草原之蓝(10:58)
kentbeck对大家说: Software isn't like physical manufacturing. Every software development is different, and sometimes radically so.(10:59)
joe_lee对kentbeck说: How to manage bugs and modify requirement in XP?(10:59)
developerly进入聊天室.(10:59)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: RUP in China. I have no idea. XP poses problems for programmers from every culture, but different parts of it are appealing as well.(10:59)
fdu_se01对kentbeck说: Second, I think his idea has its inevitability. It seems to me that Taylor is just like Adam Smith, who constructed the base for the current western world.(10:59)
kentbeck对大家说: What is hardest about XP in China?(11:00)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: XP is rely on software or people?(11:00)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: sorry, i don't know XP well.(11:00)
kentbeck对大家说: XP absolutely relies on people. Good people tend to do good things. Less skilled people do less well.(11:00)
tooliu对kentbeck说: We have no idea about the right team method(11:00)
xlp223对kentbeck说: before you said :Patterns Generate Architectures.i want to listen your explain.(11:01)
joe_lee对kentbeck说: Re:What is hardest ... I think some managers have no concept of XP(11:01)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: XP is little in China.(11:01)
tooliu对kentbeck说: That maybe the most difficult part(11:01)
fyfly进入聊天室.(11:01)
notyy对大家说: kent,maybe changing management and programmer's mind is the hardest(11:01)
skyin进入聊天室.(11:01)
adylee对kentbeck说: yah, chinese now know a little about XP.(11:02)
notyy对大家说: and get them to do xp one practice a time(11:02)
tooliu对kentbeck说: And the Excutives still have no idea about the right way(11:02)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: pls continue.(11:02)
simplebest对kentbeck说: I think XP has not been accepted deeply by the professors in China.(11:02)
skyin进入聊天室.(11:02)
dggh深情地凝视着，对kentbeck说: Proxy customers don't know customer needs,how to do?(11:02)
luteng进入聊天室.(11:02)
luteng对大家说: 11(11:02)
thethird进入聊天室.(11:02)
skyin进入聊天室.(11:02)
kentbeck对大家说: When I was last in Japan, they said they couldn't be honest with their customers, because the customer was God.(11:03)
kentbeck对大家说: I asked if a just-in-time supplier was honest with their customers. "Oh, yes, of course. It wouldn't work otherwise."(11:03)
skyin对大家说: wuwu, i was disconnected. but now i come back(11:03)
kentbeck对大家说: I think this is like XP. We need to be honest with our customers and engage them. They may not like it at first,(11:04)
adylee对kentbeck说: well, that sounds intereting(11:04)
tonymao进入聊天室.(11:04)
mmrgood对kentbeck说: What should we do with version control in XP?(11:04)
kentbeck对大家说: but the results will be so much better that they will learn to demand this new level of involvement.(11:04)
notyy对大家说: kent,you should know a word"no one is punished because using IBM",so many company manager would like to use rup or cmm(11:05)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: RUP and CMM. What will it take before it is true that no one is fired for using XP? We should work to make that happen.(11:05)
taoxie进入聊天室.(11:05)
kentbeck对大家说: "Oh, your team didn't deliver any software for three whole months. How could that work? You're fired."(11:06)
xlp223对kentbeck说: before you said :Patterns Generate Architectures.i want to listen your explain(11:06)
skyin对大家说: any successful software developed by xp? tell me some examples(11:06)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: how to use CMM2 in XP?(11:06)
notyy对大家说: hehe,that's right.(11:06)
chenyi918进入聊天室.(11:06)
chenyi918进入聊天室.(11:07)
kentbeck对大家说: I'll take a technical question- patterns generate architectures. The original question was, "What is the relationship between patterns and architectures."(11:07)
adylee对kentbeck说: do u think that we should learn XP instead of CMM ?(11:07)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: my company is actualizing CMM2, how to use CMM2 in XP?(11:07)
kentbeck对大家说: This was when design patterns were new. So Ralph and I got in a hotel room and tried to answer the question.(11:07)
kentbeck对大家说: The answer we found was that just as a theorem can be derived from first principles,(11:08)
whoo进入聊天室.(11:08)
daniel1226进入聊天室.(11:08)
kentbeck对大家说: so an architecture can be derived from first principles (the patterns).(11:08)
dggh吓得双腿发软，颤声对大家说: QA department wants detailed requirements,but we team only have simple document!God save us?(11:08)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: my company is actualizing CMM2, how to use CMM2 in XP?((11:08)
kentbeck对大家说: The thesis, which no one has really proven or disproven, is that any architecture can be derived from the successive application of a small set of patterns.(11:08)
joe_lee对kentbeck说: From what I understand, the relationship between patterns and architectures just like relationship between classes and objects(11:08)
重粒子对kentbeck说: do you think programmer's skill is important than manager's command at XP(11:09)
阿楼对kentbeck说: oh,my god.I think my manager can't using xp because he like control everything.what can I do for it?(11:09)
taoxie进入聊天室.(11:09)
notyy对大家说: I understand now...(11:09)
skyin对大家说: //admire notyy(11:10)
yhufo对kentbeck说: Mr Kent ,what do you think the most important thing as a programmer.(11:10)
java.net进入聊天室.(11:10)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: QA. In XP, QA has an up-front role. Every iteration, the best teams deliver acceptance tests along with their stories before the technical team starts breaking the(11:10)
xlp223对kentbeck说: great!(11:10)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: wuwu, but i still don't understand.(11:10)
kentbeck对大家说: stories into tasks. You need testers to write these tests, and the infrastructure to support them.(11:10)
阿楼进入聊天室.(11:11)
simplebest进入聊天室.(11:11)
simplebest对kentbeck说: In china, most of excellent programmer don't like others sit side by side, how to practise XP?(11:11)
kentbeck对大家说: The most important thing for a programmer to have is courage--courage to risk looking stupid, courage to try difficult and new techniques,(11:11)
kentbeck对大家说: courage to communicate clearly with others even when that is hard.(11:11)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: i like courage.(11:11)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: and i have courage.(11:11)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: excellent programmers. On my teams, the most excellent programmers are those that communicate the most. Perhaps we have a different definition of "excellent".(11:12)
阿楼进入聊天室.(11:12)
阿楼进入聊天室.(11:12)
notyy对大家说: excellent!(11:12)
tensile进入聊天室.(11:12)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: managers in control. Managers who want to decide for you should not be managers. You might have to move, or they might.(11:12)
zer进入聊天室.(11:13)
zer对kentbeck说: if software need load test ,what will you do ?(11:13)
adylee对大家说: In China, excellent programmer is a coder who write code well .(11:13)
kentbeck对大家说: What you want from a manager in XP is the ability to build and maintain social networks.(11:13)
dggh无奈地耸耸肩，对kentbeck说: What about "simplicity"?It is also a xp principle?(11:13)
taoxie对大家说: What is your opinion on gap between acedemia and industry? R. Johnson and D. Schimtd...are exceptions.(11:13)
kentbeck对大家说: broke, then they would fix it.(11:13)
kentbeck对大家说: The customers can specify what level of load needs to be supported, and they write tests to determine if that level is supported.(11:14)
kentbeck对大家说: If the tests fail, the technical team fixes the system.(11:14)
fdu_se01对kentbeck说: Mr. Beck. What is the characteristics of XP projects? Such as domain involved, size of development team, size of software product. CMM's data(esp.in US) is based on DoD..(11:14)
yhufo对kentbeck说: If we do not use pair programming ,Can we carry out XP!(11:14)
notyy对大家说: a good metaphor is very difficult to discover,how to solve it ?(11:15)
skyin对大家说: kent, you say communication is the key to xp, but some say validation is the key, and i think the promotion of person is the most important, right?(11:15)
老老刀进入聊天室.(11:15)
fdu_se01对kentbeck说: contractors. do u think it's part of the reason that it might be unfit for the business community?(11:15)
kentbeck对大家说: Size--4-30 people (including the whole team). Domain--everything imaginable. Size of product--whatever 30 productive people can produce in a few years.(11:15)
donghp2000进入聊天室.(11:16)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: metaphor. Finding good metaphor requires experience with the software. The really powerful metaphors won't emerge instantly.(11:16)
tensile进入聊天室.(11:16)
tensile进入聊天室.(11:16)
xlp223对kentbeck说: linus is one of there excellent programmer.but he has a little timidness sometimes.what should i do?(11:16)
kentbeck对大家说: I had a great metaphor come to me after 12 years of working on a piece of software once. I hope I would be smarter now, but I doubt it :-((11:16)
zer对kentbeck说: As a PM,if someone is out of your team,(he's a higher),what will you do ?(11:16)
skyin对大家说: hoho(11:17)
simplebest对kentbeck说: About definition of excellent: it means you can resolve problems which the others can't(11:17)
kentbeck对大家说: zer what do you mean "out of your team"?(11:17)
notyy对大家说: oh,god!but I have courage,hehe(11:17)
tensile进入聊天室.(11:17)
adylee对大家说: linus is one of there excellent programmer.but he has a little timidness sometimes.what should i do?(11:17)
donghp2000进入聊天室.(11:17)
garyliu进入聊天室.(11:17)
zer对kentbeck说: he is fired(11:17)
kentbeck对大家说: My definition of excellent is getting other to resolve problems which they don't think they can resolve. It's about how much the team can do together.(11:18)
skyin对notyy说: i almost lose courage(11:18)
重粒子进入聊天室.(11:18)
adylee对kentbeck说: yah, i agree with u ..(11:18)
kentbeck对大家说: If someone leaves a team, it usually is not a big problem. Velocity might drop (or it might rise). The planning practices handle changing velocity nicely already.(11:19)
zer对kentbeck说: sorry ,my english is poor(11:19)
charles_y进入聊天室.(11:19)
charles_y对大家说: Hi ,Mr beck,nice to see you(11:19)
老老刀很高兴地对kentbeck说: I think XP is a superior OS ,but I am also interested in the direction of XP's evolvement, can you tell us sth. about it?(11:19)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: timid programmers. Pairing really works well to help people become more social.(11:19)
simplebest对kentbeck说: re excellent: Thanks, I know why XP is slowly spreaded in china.(11:19)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: poor English. My Chinese (any variety) is much worse.(11:20)
xlp223对kentbeck说: do you think what XP lacks mostly now?(11:20)
zer对kentbeck说: now.i'am learning XP ..(11:20)
hailand进入聊天室.(11:20)
xlp223对kentbeck说: do you think what XP lacks mostly now?(11:21)
liaoping进入聊天室.(11:21)
skyin对大家说: direction of XP's evolvement?(11:21)
alin_first进入聊天室.(11:21)
simplebest对kentbeck说: I want to learn whether we can adjust XP's practices to fit our software team?(11:21)
kentbeck对大家说: The next step for XP is to embrace more of the whole team--how do you take a giant story and break into reasonable small stories? How do you communicate and coordinate(11:21)
adylee对kentbeck说: do u think that XP is perfect now ?(11:21)
kentbeck对大家说: between teams.(11:21)
tensile对kentbeck说: i should how XP use in my item habie?(11:21)
liaoping对大家说: sting在吗(11:22)
joe_lee对kentbeck说: I'm studying XP, but no practice about it, what do I notice when I do first project with XP?(11:22)
tonymao对大家说: hi,my question is how to practice XP my self, not in the team?(11:22)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: perfection. You must be joking. Emergent systems in nature use 3-5 rules, typically. I'm sad that XP seems to require so many rules.(11:22)
skyin对大家说: you mean make xp to suit more than 10-20 persons?(11:22)
zer对kentbeck说: i think i need some documents about testing of XP.i couldn't understand it very smoothly.(11:22)
mmrgood进入聊天室.(11:23)
mmrgood对kentbeck说: As a PM, how to have the team members communicate more?(11:23)
kentbeck对大家说: I'm always looking for ways to simplify it. Could you maintain visibility and control without test-first? I don't think so, but I'm too emotionally involved to know.(11:23)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: rules? what i should need ?(11:23)
dggh进入聊天室.(11:23)
dggh含情脉脉，温柔地对kentbeck说: Can you tell us the whole xp development-tools,from "plan" to "release"?(11:23)
charles_y对大家说: do you have some books on XP?,(11:23)
hailand对大家说: can XP work with cmm(11:23)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: overview. That's difficult. The web sites I listed above should help.(11:23)
xmlone进入聊天室.(11:23)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: pls continue.(11:23)
simplebest对kentbeck说: I want to learn whether we can adjust XP's practices to fit our software team? especially according our chinese team member's character?(11:24)
tooliu进入聊天室.(11:24)
tooliu对kentbeck说: So you mean it's more important to be good in social than to be hard coding?(11:24)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: books. I wrote XP Explained, which I believe is being translated into Chinese. Does anyone know the status of the translation?(11:24)
notyy对大家说: do u mean xp will be more simple,but I think agile process is more complex(11:24)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: social and coding. I'd rather have someone who can do both. Everyone on the team is constantly learning new skills socially and technically.(11:25)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: Often English translate to Chinese need one year.(11:25)
notyy对大家说: the book is under translation now,will be published soon(11:25)
kentbeck对大家说: I want XP to become simpler, but I don't see how to do that at the moment.(11:25)
simplebest对kentbeck说: I want to learn whether we can adjust XP's practices to fit our software team? especially according our chinese team member's character?(11:25)
skyin对大家说: how about agile method?(11:25)
notyy对大家说: And other xp books are under transtion too(11:25)
guxl进入聊天室.(11:25)
zer对kentbeck说: everything will be fixed so it can be used in fact of china.(11:26)
a_pen进入聊天室.(11:26)
tonymao对kentbeck说: hi,my question is how to practise XP by my self, not in the team?(11:26)
adylee对kentbeck说: if u wrote the XP Explained, we can translate into chinese right now(11:26)
xmlone对大家说: how about JUnit?(11:26)
阿楼进入聊天室.(11:26)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: adjusting. You must adjust any process. You will be held responsible for your results, so you must have authority over your practices.(11:26)
charles_y对大家说: when did the book published? I mean the english version(should be).(11:26)
tooliu对kentbeck说: Do you have any unsatisfied point to XP?(11:26)
dikay进入聊天室.(11:26)
kentbeck对大家说: However, I want people to adjust based on experience, not just throw out something important because they are afraid to try it.(11:26)
skyin对大家说: agree(11:27)
kentbeck对大家说: XP Explained was published in 1999. (There's a lot I would change now, but I'm working on other projects at the moment).(11:27)
fdu_se01对大家说: How long can XP be applied in a team? (learning curve? I'm not sure about how to explain ^_^))(11:27)
notyy对大家说: yes,in xprogrammer.com's article ,it says,try it,get feedback and adjust it(11:27)
simplebest对kentbeck说: according Einstein: the perfectest thing is simpleest thing. So I think XP is better than RUP.(11:27)
xlp223对kentbeck说: now there is agile software development.but can you say the relation between it and XP?(11:28)
notyy对大家说: so should xp explained be the first book we should read?(11:28)
zer对kentbeck说: i have two books of XP.(11:28)
chenheng123进入聊天室.(11:28)
lilaoguai微笑着对kentbeck说: how to get something about xp?(11:28)
kentbeck对大家说: Teams usually get good results after weeks or months. They usually become dramatically more effective after 9-12 months.(11:28)
joe_lee离开了聊天室.(11:28)
corba66进入聊天室.(11:28)
alin_first咯咯一笑，很大方地对kentbeck说: which book(s) is bible in XP field?(11:28)
zer对kentbeck说: for small team,xp is better,i think .(11:28)
kentbeck对大家说: A team I coach at Iona took almost a year to really get comfortable, and they can still become much more effective.(11:29)
dzzh进入聊天室.(11:29)
dzzh对大家说: hi, What is the web site address in which introduce of XP?(11:29)
xlp223对kentbeck说: now there is agile software development.but can you say the relation between it and XP?(11:29)
dggh含情脉脉，温柔地对kentbeck说: Could you give us your email or icqno?(11:29)
feixueying进入聊天室.(11:29)
lovelybug28进入聊天室.(11:29)
lovelybug28对大家说: kent,sorry,i am new to xp.does xp has maneuverability? i dont like the abstract concept.(11:29)
tooliu对kentbeck说: Any other tips for XP?(11:29)
notyy对大家说: will you come to china to coach some chinese company?(11:29)
阿楼进入聊天室.(11:29)
kentbeck对大家说: "Agile" came out of a workshop where many like-minded methodologists got together to talk about their software processes.(11:29)
skyin对大家说: i know many software corp just design the software and leave the coding work to indian and others, can they use xp?(11:30)
kentbeck对大家说: We had more in common than we had differences, so we decided to use the word "agile" to describe what we have in common.(11:30)
skyin对大家说: i mean the corps in us(11:30)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: can u tell us ur email?(11:30)
notyy对大家说: dzzh,you will get many in xpchina group(11:30)
simplebest对kentbeck说: RUP and CMM is much more complicated, It's hard to fulfill completely, But chinese professors prefer to these, how about US.(11:30)
kentbeck对大家说: Email-- mailto:kent@threeriversinstitute.org.(11:30)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: notty how to use XPchina?(11:31)
andrew.cheng进入聊天室.(11:31)
talkchen进入聊天室.(11:31)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: visiting China. I would love to. I have coached teams all over America and several places in Europe. Now I'm beginning to work on Asia.(11:31)
lovelybug28对大家说: kent,sorry,i am new to xp.does xp has maneuverability? i dont like the abstract concept.(11:31)
kentbeck对大家说: I find it fascinating what is difficult and what is easy in different cultures.(11:31)
alin_first咯咯一笑，很大方地对kentbeck说: where can i find more XP resource(11:31)
阿楼进入聊天室.(11:32)
kentbeck对大家说: Swiss Germans like writing tests. Mexicans like pair programming. Refactoring is popular in the mid-west of America.(11:32)
zer对kentbeck说: how to control small releases?if use some tools?(11:32)
skyin对大家说: Mr. kent, how to be a mentor?(11:32)
hehui_flyman进入聊天室.(11:32)
gigix对lovelybug28说: XP is not abstract. It's very concrete.(11:32)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: manuverability. Suppose you could break down your desires for a large software project into one week pieces.(11:32)
fdu_se01对大家说: Are there any sites introducing such data formally? data is more convincing, and in my humble opinion, will be greatly beneficial to promote XP. I haven't read your ...(11:32)
阿楼进入聊天室.(11:33)
notyy对大家说: is japan much different from usa?(11:33)
tooliu对kentbeck说: Where could I get a job like yours? :)(11:33)
kentbeck对大家说: Every week we would meet and you would tell me what piece you would think is most valuable to have next.(11:33)
simplebest对kentbeck说: RUP and CMM is much more complicated, even it's hard to fulfill completely or correctly. But chinese professors prefer to these, less of them prefer to XP,how about US.(11:33)
kentbeck对大家说: I don't care what piece you pick, so you can radically change your overall concept of the software without hearing(11:33)
fdu_se01对大家说: book, but I think if XP can be introduced with a real example, the effect will be better.(11:33)
kentbeck对大家说: any complaints from me. Is that manuverability?(11:33)
yhufo对kentbeck说: how we catch the user requirement,Just talk to User?We should have Document record it I think!(11:34)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: XP and academics. We are making some progress. There are prominent professors, like Ralph Johnson, that teach XP in their courses.(11:34)
kentbeck对大家说: XP has many pedagogical advantages. Iterations give students the chance to try many different variations.(11:35)
notyy对大家说: our goverment encourages cmm,but I feel xp more concrete(11:35)
lovelybug28对大家说: but we do so before xp appears.(11:35)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: real examples. There is an excellent book, XP In Practice, that talks about a real (if small) project.(11:36)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: notty,but the difference between CMM and XP(11:36)
kentbeck对大家说: What would have to happen for your government to encourage XP?(11:36)
dggh进入聊天室.(11:36)
dggh流口水地对kentbeck说: 《The Smalltalk Best Practice Patterns》》、《Extreme Programming Explained》has Chinese version?where we can buy them?(11:36)
阿楼对notyy说: so I think it(11:36)
dzzh进入聊天室.(11:36)
notyy对大家说: many mid-small company would accept xp,but they don't have much money to employ a mentor(11:36)
skyin对大家说: Mr.beck, tell us your personal toolbox for programming in XP,ok?(11:36)
kentbeck对大家说: I don't think there is a Chinese version of the Smalltalk patterns. XP Explained will be coming out soon. Someone else here may be able to tell you the schedule.(11:36)
net-x进入聊天室.(11:37)
lovelybug28对大家说: kent:about maneuverability,but we do so before xp appears...(11:37)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: notty, my company is using CMM, how to use cmm in XP?(11:37)
notyy对大家说: there's nothing we can do ,unless goverment care for mid-small companys more(11:37)
charles_y对kentbeck说: uml,rup, cmm ,xp. What a terrible life for a common programmer(11:37)
kentbeck对大家说: My toolbox? VisualWorks for Smalltalk and the Refactoring Browser if I'm coding for myself, Eclipse and JUnit if I'm coding in Java. Those are the only two languages I(11:37)
umlchina对大家说: There will be a Chinese version of your "Extreme Programming Explained" soon, how should we read this "First XP book in Chinese"?(11:37)
notyy对大家说: tensile,we can discuss later.(11:38)
kentbeck对大家说: use a lot.(11:38)
notyy对大家说: another question(11:38)
notyy对大家说: is OOAD a must in xp?(11:38)
yhufo对kentbeck说: Have you ever been to china!it is a beautful country(11:38)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: Mr. Kent, how to execute XP in Company?(11:38)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: manuverability. If you already know how to do this, then XP has something to learn from you.(11:38)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: OOAD. You must make analysis and design decisions, of course. The question is when and how to you notate them.(11:39)
kentbeck对大家说: Detailed analysis decisions are made iteration by iteration, and notated as automated tests. Design decisions are made(11:39)
tonymao对kentbeck说: How About CRC Card?(11:40)
simplebest进入聊天室.(11:40)
重粒子进入聊天室.(11:40)
kentbeck对大家说: during story estimation, during iteration planning, and during coding, and are notated as code and unit tests.(11:40)
老老刀对kentbeck说: What the necessary resource to execute XP in our company(about 200 employees)?(11:40)
lovelybug28对大家说: Re: manuverability,:)(11:40)
notyy对大家说: but without oo support,refactoring maybe very difficult,such as pure asp programming(11:40)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: China. I have never been, but I have wished to come for many years.(11:41)
zer对大家说: welcome(11:41)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: starting XP in a 200 person company. What I have found is you need a technical champion, who is willing to deeply learn and then teach the techniques,(11:41)
重粒子进入聊天室.(11:41)
kentbeck对大家说: a business champion to convince the business community to try stories and iterations, and an executive champion to keep everyone from freaking out the first time things(11:42)
kentbeck对大家说: go wrong. All change is accompanied by chaos.(11:42)
liuxf666进入聊天室.(11:42)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: how to deeply learn and then teach the techniques?(11:42)
notyy对大家说: Are there any real projects that are implemented with XP process? How about the effect.(11:42)
simplebest对kentbeck说: If our gov encourage XP, all of the software compnies will follow it directly without thinking, just like they are crowding to CMM and ISO(11:42)
nix00000进入聊天室.(11:43)
kentbeck对大家说: How can you thoughtlessly follow a method that requires deep and careful thought?(11:43)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: real projects. The XP mailing list has representatives from more than a hundred real projects, I would guess. There probably aren't 1000 projects in the world using(11:44)
kentbeck对大家说: XP yet, though.(11:44)
simplebest对kentbeck说: In china, goverment is all the thing. It's recommendation is commands(11:44)
charles_y对kentbeck说: To my acknowledge ,little chinese company apply XP(11:44)
morenew进入聊天室.(11:44)
notyy对大家说: hehe,great(11:44)
lovelybug28对大家说: Re: manuverability.but does xp has some outstanding character? can you give me one sentence which summarize the essential of xp? thanks.(11:44)
notyy对大家说: now stop discussing gov(11:45)
charles_y对kentbeck说: big one use rup? all i right(11:45)
archangelqin进入聊天室.(11:45)
kentbeck对大家说: The goal of the game in XP is to get as much of the most valuable software delivered as possible by any given date.(11:45)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: i hope XP can truly solve real problem in ouritem.(11:45)
adylee进入聊天室.(11:45)
adylee对kentbeck说: now stop discussing govement.(11:45)
charles_y对kentbeck说: my poor computer(11:45)
kentbeck对大家说: To do this, everyone on the team must give up notions of absolutes and live with constant learning.(11:46)
charles_y对kentbeck说: Why XP called xp?(11:46)
lovelybug28对大家说: Re: manuverability.but does xp has some outstanding character? can you give me one sentence which summarize the essential of xp? thanks.(11:46)
notyy对大家说: most people like a process that can produce more value I think(11:46)
charles_y对kentbeck说: is there any relationship with WINDOWS XP?(11:46)
simplebest对kentbeck说: The academy have inflence on the goverment, the goverments can affect the company.(11:46)
notyy对大家说: mo matter big company or small one(11:46)
robincn进入聊天室.(11:47)
kentbeck对大家说: "extreme" is like extreme sports, where people prepare carefully and then achieve the impossible.(11:47)
fdu_se01进入聊天室.(11:47)
fdu_se01对大家说: (Repeat the question)Are there any sites introducing statistics of XP implementation? might be helpful to promote XP.(11:47)
kentbeck对大家说: "programming" because at the end of the day what we get paid for is running systems.(11:47)
老老刀对simplebest说: In China ,government is not all the thing , at least in the financial area , enterprises are making louder sounds ! And I think though the WTO session ,(11:47)
adylee对kentbeck说: why do u call "extreme" programing rathan than other words ?(11:47)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: Windows XP. No relation, except that they use the same two letters in the same order.(11:47)
adylee对kentbeck说: why do u call "extreme" programing rathan than other words ?(11:48)
charles_y对kentbeck说: thank(11:48)
notyy对大家说: so xp will be a choice for our industry(11:48)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: "extreme". You want names to be accurate, memorable, and defensible. This last is most important. I wanted a name(11:48)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: XP is good, i should how to use in my item?(11:48)
lovelybug28对大家说: Re: manuverability.but does xp has some outstanding character? can you give me one sentence which summarize the essential of xp? thanks.---sorry,i want to know...(11:48)
zer对大家说: what's simple dedign?(11:48)
kentbeck对大家说: that my "enemies" would never say they were doing.(11:49)
whoo进入聊天室.(11:49)
notyy对大家说: tensile,join our group and try(11:49)
liuxf666离开了聊天室.(11:49)
xlp223进入聊天室.(11:49)
xlp223对kentbeck说: what are your enemies?(11:49)
gigix对大家说: Mr. Beck, which programming language do you think to be the best in XP?(11:49)
xlp223对kentbeck说: who?(11:49)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: starting to use XP. Here's a simple exercise. Write down everything you need to do. Say how long each will take. Add up the numbers. Decide what not to do.(11:50)
zer对大家说: before code,we must design everything in SE.(11:50)
adylee对kentbeck说: yeah, which language is the best for XP?(11:50)
awarmer进入聊天室.(11:50)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: "enemies" I didn't really want to use that word, but I'm trying to type fast. When I named XP, I had Grady Booch in mind.(11:50)
kentbeck对大家说: He has a different concept of software development than I do (not wholly wrong, just different).(11:51)
charles_y对kentbeck说: thanks ,by4e'(11:51)
kentbeck对大家说: If I created something popular, there would be pressure for Rational to say they were doing it, too.(11:51)
kentbeck对大家说: They have never said they were "extreme", although they do say they are "agile".(11:51)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: can u give us an example about XP?(11:51)
kentbeck对大家说: Zer- why must you design everything. What would happen if you only design for the first half?(11:52)
yzj740811进入聊天室.(11:52)
xlp223对kentbeck说: there is very different in mind between rup and xp?(11:52)
zer对大家说: homour(11:52)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: RUP and XP. XP is a process. RUP is a process framework, with a default instantiation that looks a lot like manufacturing.(11:52)
morenew对kentbeck说: can you tell me about the rule of planning XP? and the keys of XP?(11:53)
viery进入聊天室.(11:53)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: example. I can't think of how to do it in 10 minutes. Can you ask a more specific question?(11:53)
dggh依依不舍地对kentbeck说: We all wish TRI&you be successful in the future!Welcome you to Chine for investments!(11:53)
notyy对大家说: so some people said xp is rup adjust to smallest.(11:54)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: planning. Negotiate scope. Time, quality, and cost are fixed. That's the XP way.(11:54)
fdu_se01对大家说: Does XP promote the idea that "everyone is differently important in the organization"? if it's the case, how do you deal with fluctuation of human resource?(11:54)
xlp223对kentbeck说: xp==dXup(11:54)
nix00000离开了聊天室.(11:55)
dzzh进入聊天室.(11:55)
deng2002进入聊天室.(11:55)
xlp223对kentbeck说: ???xp==dXup(11:55)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: fluctuation. The rule in XP planning is that every iteration (1-3 weeks) you plan to accomplish as much as you actually accomplished(11:55)
kentbeck对大家说: in the previous iteration. If you get done early, you ask for more work. If you are going to be late, you ask what you should defer.(11:55)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: my company have 300 men. and how to divide the work in an item using XP?(11:55)
ctm进入聊天室.(11:56)
kentbeck对大家说: This simple rules elegantly handles vacations, personal growth, hiring, and shuffling between projects.(11:56)
adylee对kentbeck说: we think that XP is much better for us instead of CMM in China .(11:56)
xlp223离开了聊天室.(11:56)
zer对大家说: yes.(11:56)
yhz_work进入聊天室.(11:56)
kentbeck对大家说: There are lots of questions about "exactly how do we do this in China". I recommend that you form small, geographically localized(11:56)
dggh对大家说: We all wish TRI&you be successful in the future!Welcome you to Chine for investments!(11:56)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: can u think of the future of XP?(11:57)
kentbeck对大家说: groups to answer these questions for yourselves. Your answers will be much better than mine.(11:57)
notyy对大家说: kent,we are trying to do so.(11:57)
kentbeck对大家说: There are probably 20 of these groups worldwide, and they really help the attendees.(11:57)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: in my company should use XP or CMM2?(11:57)
gigix对大家说: When we say "in China", we means "in Beijing" or "in Shanghai".(11:57)
trybird进入聊天室.(11:58)
kentbeck对大家说: The long-term future of XP is that it will get brittle and senile and be replaced by something better.(11:58)
notyy对大家说: I formed xpchina group,and have 25xx people join in.(11:58)
skyin对大家说: yeah, that's why the xpchina exsits(11:58)
notyy对大家说: maybe the next step should be build local groups(11:58)
kentbeck对大家说: In the intervening 50 years, however, I expect many of its practices to be accepted as "just the right way to do things".(11:58)
gigix对大家说: In Chinese, IT community is much smaller than in USA.(11:58)
adylee对kentbeck说: yeah, i agree with notty .(11:59)
fdu_se01对大家说: 2 ways to show a pic.First, show it as a whole from light to dark. Second, show it from part to part.Which way do you prefer?(Did I explain my question clearly?))(11:59)
kentbeck对大家说: Test-first, refactoring, quick concrete deliverables, teams combining business and technical talent.(11:59)
whoo离开了聊天室.(11:59)
skyin对大家说: what a exciting future(11:59)
kentbeck对大家说: Re: 2 ways to show a pic. I'm not sure I understand. I tend to work from concrete to abstract, data to theory. Is this what you mean?(12:00)
umlchina进入聊天室.(12:00)
dggh离开了聊天室.(12:00)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: is any item need use XP?(12:01)
tonymao对notyy说: local groups, good idea.:)(12:01)
kentbeck对大家说: Thank you very much for your time and questions. Best of luck to you all.(12:01)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: to get good habit?(12:01)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: thanx.(12:01)
kentbeck对大家说: Good bye.(12:01)
skyin对notyy说: something like LUG(12:01)
shenqw对大家说: Thanks & bye(12:01)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: hope u often come.(12:01)
阿楼进入聊天室.(12:01)
阿楼对kentbeck说: thank you(12:01)
notyy对大家说: thank you very much(12:01)
dzzh进入聊天室.(12:01)
dzzh对大家说: thank you(12:01)
trybird进入聊天室.(12:01)
umlchina对大家说: bye(12:01)
zer对大家说: bye.(12:01)
notyy对大家说: hope you will come to china soon!(12:01)
fdu_se01对大家说: what i mean(sorry *^_^*): what is the product of one iteration? part of whole, or a draft of whole?(12:02)
tensile很高兴地对kentbeck说: hope u come to my company.(12:02)
viery对kentbeck说: Bye.Welcome to China.(12:02)
notyy对大家说: bye!(12:02)
yzj740811离开了聊天室.(12:02)
阿楼对大家说: good bye(12:02)
adylee对kentbeck说: good bye(12:02)
skyin对notyy说: bye(12:02)
kentbeck离开了聊天室.(12:03)