北京时间2002年3月7日（星期四）上午10:00-12:00
嘉宾：David Van Camp。David Van Camp是对象技术、设计模式、软件复用方面的专家，有17年的软件开发经验。经历了各种大大小小的项目，有录像租借店管理系统等小项目，也有NASA（美国航空航天局）的哈勃太空望远镜控制系统等大项目。他的个人资料页面请看>>
交流重点：对象技术、设计模式、软件复用...
主持人：gigix
网址：焦点网UMLChina小组聊天室（必须登录焦点网方可进入）
http://umlchina.smiling.com/group/chat/check_login.ecgi?group_id=9986
gigix对大家说: 刚才断线了。(2002/03/7 09:30)
gigix对大家说: 我这里网速好慢哟，还是专线呢……要死了。(2002/03/7 09:31)
dongyeye对大家说: 本聊天室有些问题，丢信息啊(2002/03/7 09:31)
gigix对大家说: 我是今天的主持人透明，爱好是面向对象和C++。各位介绍一下自己？(2002/03/7 09:32)
idlecrook对大家说: 测试一下速度问题(2002/03/7 09:32)
dongyeye对大家说: 我刚才向gigix发了一些信息，什么也没显示啊(2002/03/7 09:32)
idlecrook对大家说: 我的速度好慢哟(2002/03/7 09:33)
dongyeye对大家说: 我这里号称宽带，信息显示也很慢，服务器？(2002/03/7 09:33)
homemoon对大家说: 我对软件工程比较感兴趣,是个新手(2002/03/7 09:33)
idlecrook对大家说: 我可是校园网(2002/03/7 09:33)
gigix对大家说: 将就着吧……我其实也不熟悉Van Camp，但是我知道他做了很多军方项目。(2002/03/7
09:33)
umlchina对大家说: 慢－－smiling的问题(2002/03/7 09:33)
gigix对大家说: idlecrook，你哪个学校的？(2002/03/7 09:33)
idlecrook对大家说: 山大(2002/03/7 09:34)
dongyeye对大家说: 我在杭州，一家纯软件公司，目前在做政府项目(2002/03/7 09:34)
dongyeye对大家说: 看来Van Camp的吸引力一般哪，现在才7人(2002/03/7 09:35)
idlecrook对大家说: 没办法，象我这种智商只能进这种不如流的学校(2002/03/7 09:35)
homemoon对gigix说: 能告诉我哪些书适合我(2002/03/7 09:35)
homemoon对大家说: 主要是宣传不够(2002/03/7 09:36)
dongyeye对大家说: 山大不错啊，也不要妄自菲薄吗，最近不是有公司抄作不要北大清华的毕业生啊(2002/03/7
09:36)
gigix对大家说: 软工的书吗？(2002/03/7 09:36)
gigix对大家说: 我觉得《快速软件开发》不错(2002/03/7 09:36)
gigix对大家说: 不过可能需要高教的经典教材做基础。(2002/03/7 09:36)
dongyeye对大家说: 我先歇一会，回头再来(2002/03/7 09:37)
homemoon对gigix说: 那个版本的(2002/03/7 09:37)
gigix对大家说: 呵呵，UMLCHINA就是北大的哟。什么事情都不要一概而论嘛。(2002/03/7 09:37)
shenqw对大家说: 那是清华北大太傲(2002/03/7 09:37)
gigix对大家说: 我没有觉得呀。我接触到的两个北大的人：UMLCHINA、潘爱民，都很谦虚的。(2002/03/7
09:38)
gigix对大家说: 而且对人都很好，呵呵。(2002/03/7 09:38)
shenqw对大家说: 当然，不失全部(2002/03/7 09:38)
homemoon对gigix说: 我建议你还是介绍一下今天的David Van Camp(2002/03/7 09:38)
homemoon对gigix说: 你的mail能公布吗(2002/03/7 09:39)
gigix对大家说: 我的mail：gigix@umlchina.com(2002/03/7 09:39)
homemoon对gigix说: 谢谢(2002/03/7 09:39)
gigix对大家说: 今天的嘉宾：http://capital.net/~dvc/(2002/03/7 09:39)
leoyliu进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 09:39)
gigix对大家说: 他做过NASA的项目。(2002/03/7 09:40)
shenqw对大家说: NASA的项目有多大(2002/03/7 09:40)
415918进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 09:40)
huhu71进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 09:40)
idlecrook对大家说: 我好像发不出话去了(2002/03/7 09:40)
qgl进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 09:41)
idlecrook对大家说: 谁还是学生？(2002/03/7 09:41)
gigix对大家说: Hubble Space Telescope Vision200 Command Center
System(2002/03/7 09:41)
gigix对大家说: 哈博望远镜主控系统。(2002/03/7 09:41)
homemoon对大家说: 他是项目负责人(2002/03/7 09:42)
gigix对大家说: 很牛X的……(2002/03/7 09:42)
gigix对大家说: 而且似乎他的article写得还不错。(2002/03/7 09:43)
shenqw对大家说: 分析人员呢，使谁？(2002/03/7 09:43)
idlecrook对大家说: 这个镜子不是坏了好多次了吗？:)(2002/03/7 09:43)
usrobin进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 09:43)
gigix对大家说: sigh……中国还做不出来呢。(2002/03/7 09:44)
homemoon对大家说: 他负责开发过约二十个项目(2002/03/7 09:45)
idlecrook对大家说: 是呀，没法比，现状就这样，到各个软件公司走走就知道了(2002/03/7 09:45)
gigix对大家说: 我想问问他：做军标和做民标有什么区别。(2002/03/7 09:45)
gigix对大家说: 大家也把自己的问题先想想，一会嘉宾来了就换E文了。(2002/03/7 09:46)
idlecrook对大家说: 我基本上没有什么问题，是来看看热闹(2002/03/7 09:46)
homemoon对大家说: 你想问什么内容(2002/03/7 09:46)
bungee_jumping进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 09:46)
gigix对大家说: 现在很多软件工程方法都是从军标里面出来的(2002/03/7 09:47)
shaojl进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 09:46)
gigix对大家说: 但是不一定适用于民用项目。(2002/03/7 09:47)
qgl进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 09:46)
homemoon对大家说: 是否研发的费用太高了(2002/03/7 09:48)
gigix对大家说: 是需求变化太快了。(2002/03/7 09:48)
homemoon对大家说: 你不知道哪些人的表述有多差(2002/03/7 09:48)
idlecrook对大家说: 如果需求基本定了，那会有什么好处？(2002/03/7 09:49)
dongyeye对大家说: 测试提问颜色(2002/03/7 09:49)
gigix对大家说: 需求如果定了，就跟造房子一样，往上垒砖头就行了，多简单。(2002/03/7 09:49)
gigix对大家说: 问题在于，软件的需求很难定。(2002/03/7 09:49)
dongyeye对大家说: 测试提问颜色(2002/03/7 09:50)
gigix对大家说: 比如说，你造一座桥，造完以后，用户总不能说“把它旋转90度”(2002/03/7 09:50)
gigix对大家说: 但是，如果你写一个windows的软件(2002/03/7 09:50)
gigix对大家说: 写完以后，用户说“把它移植到linux下”，多么合理！(2002/03/7 09:50)
gigix对大家说: 所以传统软件工程不太好用。(2002/03/7 09:50)
homemoon对大家说: 我现在正在开发一个报社的发行管理系统,知道了什么叫苦(2002/03/7 09:50)
dongyeye对大家说: 不滚屏了，faint(2002/03/7 09:51)
idlecrook对大家说: 我认为如果是分布式的，就算需求确定了，移植也很麻烦(2002/03/7 09:51)
idlecrook对大家说: 软件过程跟企业文化关系是不是很大？(2002/03/7 09:52)
imhelloworld进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 09:51)
gigix对大家说: 右下角有“自动滚屏”，点上。(2002/03/7 09:52)
dongyeye对大家说: the change is forever(2002/03/7 09:52)
gigix对大家说: 呵呵，所以说软件不好弄啊……(2002/03/7 09:52)
homemoon对大家说: 是呀(2002/03/7 09:52)
gigix对大家说: 所以程序员才有饭吃，不然真的都成了代码工人了。(2002/03/7 09:52)
idlecrook对大家说: 比如我在win下用com那我到linux夏用什么？corba(2002/03/7 09:53)
dongyeye对大家说: 点上以后必须在IE上刷新，才执行新的滚屏动作。(2002/03/7 09:53)
davidvancamp进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 09:52)
shenqw进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 09:53)
shenqw对大家说: idlecrook: 你想如何移植(2002/03/7 09:53)
homemoon对大家说: 没有办法(2002/03/7 09:53)
dongyeye对davidvancamp说: hi,is camp come in？(2002/03/7 09:54)
mypine进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 09:53)
homemoon对大家说: 主持人提问时必续用英文吗(2002/03/7 09:54)
y_p_xie进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 09:53)
gigix对大家说: 是的，一会嘉宾来了以后，都用英文。(2002/03/7 09:54)
davidvancamp对大家说: Hi all, I've just arrived(2002/03/7 09:54)
gigix对大家说: 提问用草原之蓝(2002/03/7 09:54)
mypine对大家说: 用什么颜色，搞忘了！(2002/03/7 09:54)
idlecrook对大家说: 要求是这样，win下用com，混合平台用corba,unix用corba(2002/03/7
09:54)
gigix对大家说: 互相交流用绝对黑色。(2002/03/7 09:55)
mypine对大家说: 了解(2002/03/7 09:55)
umlchina对大家说: welcome(2002/03/7 09:55)
jincn进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 09:54)
imhelloworld对大家说: excuse me,just a test.(2002/03/7 09:55)
umlchina对大家说: welcome mr. van camp(2002/03/7 09:55)
homemoon对gigix说: 我的英文比较差等一会,我把问题交给你(2002/03/7 09:55)
wxrjabber进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 09:55)
gigix对大家说: who is him?(2002/03/7 09:55)
umlchina对大家说: 嘉宾到了(2002/03/7 09:55)
gigix对大家说: Hello, Mr. Camp(2002/03/7 09:55)
umlchina对大家说: 嘉宾davidvancamp(2002/03/7 09:55)
idlecrook对大家说: welcom!(2002/03/7 09:56)
gigix对davidvancamp说: Maybe I should say "Mr. Van Camp"?(2002/03/7
09:56)
davidvancamp对大家说: Thank you, I see we have about 5 min to
scheduled time -- should we wait?(2002/03/7 09:56)
shenqw对大家说: Hello(2002/03/7 09:56)
gigix对davidvancamp说: No no, we can begin now(2002/03/7 09:56)
davidvancamp对大家说: Mr. Van Camp is fine, or just Dave, if
you prefer.(2002/03/7 09:56)
homemoon对大家说: welcome(2002/03/7 09:56)
mypine对davidvancamp说: May I call you Mr. Camp?(2002/03/7
09:57)
freebase进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 09:56)
gigix对davidvancamp说: Ok, Dave.(2002/03/7 09:57)
gigix对davidvancamp说: Here's a question: how do you think
about army projects?(2002/03/7 09:57)
gigix对davidvancamp说: (my english is poor, sorry.)(2002/03/7
09:58)
dongyeye对davidvancamp说: Dave,can you tell me how to organize
a small team?(2002/03/7 09:58)
davidvancamp对大家说: army projects -- I have no experience with
that.(2002/03/7 09:58)
davidvancamp对大家说: orgainize small team -- depends on your
goals -- I would need a bit more info to answer(2002/03/7 09:58)
dongyeye对davidvancamp说: but the project is big and need long
time.(2002/03/7 09:59)
davidvancamp对大家说: (your english is fine gigix)(2002/03/7
09:59)
umlchina对大家说: Is NASA not a army department?(2002/03/7 09:59)
dongyeye对davidvancamp说: just like a goverment project(2002/03/7
09:59)
mypine对davidvancamp说: hello, dave!(2002/03/7 09:59)
mypine对davidvancamp说: Can we have a talk about UML?(2002/03/7
10:00)
davidvancamp对大家说: No NASA is a seperate agency - I believe
it has links to the military, but basically treated as a civilian agency(2002/03/7
10:00)
idlecrook对davidvancamp说: hey,Dave.how to implement a software
process?(2002/03/7 10:00)
wolfjoy进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 09:59)
davidvancamp对大家说: as far as organizing large projects, I
would organize around architectural goals(2002/03/7 10:00)
415918对大家说: dave,would you like to give some advices on software
reuse based on your own experience?(2002/03/7 10:01)
wolfjoy进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 09:59)
mypine对idlecrook说: Your question is too big!(2002/03/7 10:01)
wolfjoy进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:00)
wolfjoy进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:00)
davidvancamp对大家说: software process would also depend on organization,
goals, culture -- there is no one single solution to these(2002/03/7 10:01)
gigix对davidvancamp说: Which development process is your favorite
now?(2002/03/7 10:02)
mypine对davidvancamp说: Can you suggest us that how to learn
the software process control?(2002/03/7 10:02)
davidvancamp对大家说: reuse -- I could give a great deal of advice
-- more specific questions are needed(2002/03/7 10:02)
mypine对davidvancamp说: thanks!(2002/03/7 10:02)
idlecrook对mypine说: lol(2002/03/7 10:03)
davidvancamp对大家说: every project and organization has a specific
set of cultural and buisness goals, concerns, etc. All of these must be accounted
for in any attempt to implement software p(2002/03/7 10:03)
idlecrook对davidvancamp说: how you look about UPM?(2002/03/7
10:03)
davidvancamp对大家说: processes or a reuse strategy.(2002/03/7
10:03)
shenqw对大家说: How to reuse in project, only when maintaining?(2002/03/7
10:03)
gigix对davidvancamp说: Which development process is your favorite
now?(2002/03/7 10:04)
davidvancamp对大家说: reuse in maintenance is, it would seem
to me, a big difficult. Reuse is better approached during development.(2002/03/7
10:04)
speeding进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:03)
davidvancamp对大家说: However, component-mining (e.g. searching
existing code for reusable pieces) is a very good end practice when finishing
a project(2002/03/7 10:05)
mypine对davidvancamp说: How to reuse in development process?
code reuse or others reuse?(2002/03/7 10:05)
gigix对davidvancamp说: But if you want to "reuse during
development", you'll likely over-design.(2002/03/7 10:05)
dongyeye对davidvancamp说: but when you update your version,you
should reuse many component,if not like that,you will waste many time to do repeatly
work.(2002/03/7 10:05)
gigix对davidvancamp说: How do you think about this?(2002/03/7
10:06)
davidvancamp对大家说: I typically recomend encorporating a variety
of approaches in a larger development process starting at analysis thru final
deployment(2002/03/7 10:06)
dongyeye对davidvancamp说: can we reuse the process?(2002/03/7
10:06)
415918对davidvancamp说: what stage in software process influences
the software reuse more?(2002/03/7 10:06)
davidvancamp对大家说: over-design -- depends on how you approach
it and how certain your are of the reusability of a piece.(2002/03/7 10:07)
paddychen进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:05)
edward.reading进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:05)
dongyeye对davidvancamp说: when you have to face the "difficult"
customer, what are you do?(2002/03/7 10:08)
davidvancamp对大家说: Successful approaches have performed a
high-level business analysis to determine key business objects, then a group is
created to develop those components for later reuse(2002/03/7 10:08)
speeding进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:05)
goldarcher进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:07)
mypine离开了聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:08)
paddychen进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:06)
davidvancamp对大家说: However, I prefer an approach based on
refactoring during development and coordination between multiple projects(2002/03/7
10:08)
homemoon对davidvancamp说: Would you tell us about Software
Design and Technical Leadership?(2002/03/7 10:08)
davidvancamp对大家说: what do you mean by 'difficult customer'?(2002/03/7
10:09)
davidvancamp对大家说: I need specific questions -- Software Design
& Tech Leadership are 2 huge subjects!(2002/03/7 10:09)
freebase对大家说: Can you give me some advices about high-level
business analysis book?(2002/03/7 10:09)
gigix对davidvancamp说: Customers can never express themselves
clear(2002/03/7 10:09)
davidvancamp对大家说: Software reuse can be influenced at all
stages of development, from analysis thru final deployment(2002/03/7 10:10)
dongyeye对davidvancamp说: in china,the difficult customer is
like the goverment customer,their computer level is maybe little.(2002/03/7 10:10)
davidvancamp对大家说: Try to talk to customers using thier terms
and try to understand thier concerns and needs. Avoid complex technical jargon.(2002/03/7
10:11)
dongyeye对davidvancamp说: they don't know very well about the
IS(2002/03/7 10:11)
gigix对davidvancamp说: Customers don't know their requirements.(2002/03/7
10:11)
davidvancamp对大家说: To help customers better express thier
needs, try use cases and play the 'planning game' from extreme programming --
it works really well(2002/03/7 10:12)
yin_feng进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:11)
huhu71对大家说: To be a expert on customer's application is also
a problem for most developers(2002/03/7 10:12)
415918对davidvancamp说: what is key technology on software
reuse in your opinion?(2002/03/7 10:12)
gigix对davidvancamp说: You mentioned XP -- how do you think
about it?(2002/03/7 10:13)
jimyang进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:11)
davidvancamp对大家说: Customers should not be concerned with
technical details -- you have to lead them through the process of analysis and
what is / is not technically possible or practical(2002/03/7 10:13)
yin_feng进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:12)
davidvancamp对大家说: I've been applying aspects of XP for many
years now -- It is a very good set of 'best practices'(2002/03/7 10:13)
huhu71对大家说: But do you think XP is just for qualified proffesional
developers ?(2002/03/7 10:14)
javalover进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:14)
davidvancamp对大家说: I lacks a number of important things for
reuse or large projects, but I would advocate most of the XP practices for all
projects(2002/03/7 10:14)
gigix对davidvancamp说: Does "Pair Programming" also
a best practice?(2002/03/7 10:15)
davidvancamp对大家说: just for qualified --- absolutely not.
Even better when a project has a mix of experienced & junior people(2002/03/7
10:15)
supershan进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:14)
idlecrook对davidvancamp说: what type of project can use xp?(2002/03/7
10:15)
davidvancamp对大家说: I have mixed feelings about pair programming
-- I do not force it upon developers, ;but rather allow natural pairs to form
where they may(2002/03/7 10:16)
colinshen进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:15)
gigix对davidvancamp说: Do the pair must sitting side by side
at ONE computer?(2002/03/7 10:16)
wxrjabber对大家说: why no answer, no question(2002/03/7 10:16)
davidvancamp对大家说: xp may not be as appropriate for maintenance
or minor enhancement projects. probably ideal is new software developement(2002/03/7
10:17)
wxrjabber离开了聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:17)
davidvancamp对大家说: side-by-side w/ one computer is the 'true'
XP way. I don't follow or recommend that.(2002/03/7 10:17)
davidvancamp对大家说: wxrjavver -- what question?(2002/03/7 10:17)
415918对davidvancamp说: what do you think about RUP?(2002/03/7
10:18)
supershan对大家说: would you speak about .net and java?(2002/03/7
10:18)
davidvancamp对大家说: key tech for reuse -- your brain. A good
reuse library, and OO modeling tools are very important.(2002/03/7 10:18)
davidvancamp对大家说: RUP is good, not great. I use elements
of RUP & enhancements, such as adding XP practices(2002/03/7 10:19)
davidvancamp对大家说: I've lost the left-side of this screen,
so I cannot see who is here(2002/03/7 10:19)
gigix对davidvancamp说: How do you think about Patterns? Do
they improve the reusability? Do the encourage over-design?(2002/03/7 10:19)
davidvancamp对大家说: .net vs java -- I have not used .net --
not qualified to comment(2002/03/7 10:19)
paddychen进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:18)
415918对davidvancamp说: is XP greater in your opinion?(2002/03/7
10:20)
edward.reading很高兴地对davidvancamp说: how do you think about
the relation between OP and OO?(2002/03/7 10:20)
davidvancamp对大家说: Patterns are an excellent teaching tool,
help clarify design decisions and are a great tool. If relied on too heavily they
CAN result in 'over design'(2002/03/7 10:20)
davidvancamp对大家说: I would have the refresh the entire page
-- IE 6 doesn't provide refresh in pop-up menu -- I'll live with it(2002/03/7
10:21)
davidvancamp对大家说: OP languages support OO -- not sure I understand
questions(2002/03/7 10:22)
davidvancamp对大家说: Is XP 'greater' than what?(2002/03/7 10:22)
415918对davidvancamp说: XP is greater than RUP?(2002/03/7 10:22)
davidvancamp对大家说: If you are asking XP vs RUP -- They IMHO
do not conflict all that much -- than can easily be combined(2002/03/7 10:23)
shaojl对davidvancamp说: I didn't know "I use elements
of RUP & enhancements, such as adding XP practices",can you explain more
details?(2002/03/7 10:23)
415918对davidvancamp说: sure,in fact they share much(2002/03/7
10:23)
gigix对davidvancamp说: You say XP and RUP "can easily
be combined". Really?(2002/03/7 10:23)
yinhj进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:22)
paddychen对大家说: Mr.davidvancamp, do you have any suggestion
on R/T SW analysis?(2002/03/7 10:24)
gigix对davidvancamp说: Would you please introduce this?(2002/03/7
10:24)
davidvancamp对大家说: If you look at my 'Best Practices' doc
I wrote (www.capital.net/~dvc)-- I advocated to a project in a major Ins. company
to incorporate these practices in a RUP-based env(2002/03/7 10:24)
chi001进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:23)
阿楼进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:24)
davidvancamp对大家说: gixix -- please change your color -- do
not use red. Thank you.(2002/03/7 10:25)
colinshen对davidvancamp说: would you please tell us what projects
XP is fit to?(2002/03/7 10:25)
gigix对davidvancamp说: OK！Excuse me :)(2002/03/7 10:25)
阿楼进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:25)
davidvancamp对大家说: R/T -- again, depends on needs. not sure
how to answer (thanks gigix)(2002/03/7 10:26)
415918对davidvancamp说: dave,i often think pattern and framework
is a good presentation of reuse technology.Do you think so?(2002/03/7 10:26)
shaojl对davidvancamp说: where can i find 'Best Practices' ?(2002/03/7
10:26)
idlecrook进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:26)
jstong进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:26)
davidvancamp对大家说: Yes and components -- they all have benefits
and drawbacks. See my articles and presentations(2002/03/7 10:27)
davidvancamp对大家说: my articles and presentations are available
at: www.capital.net/~dvc(2002/03/7 10:27)
415918对davidvancamp说: thanks(2002/03/7 10:27)
cocia进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:26)
davidvancamp对大家说: There are also links to my page here at
umlchina(2002/03/7 10:28)
liaofe进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:27)
yinhj离开了聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:28)
iq777进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:27)
cocia进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:27)
bhhx进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:27)
davidvancamp对大家说: XP -- I would recomend XP mostly for new
software development, particularly using a good OO language (Java, C++, Smalltalk,
etc.)(2002/03/7 10:28)
davidvancamp对大家说: For large projects and/or many related
projects, I recomend adding aspects of RUP or another larger process(2002/03/7
10:29)
javalover对davidvancamp说: Mr.davidvancamp,I had read many
books about USE CASE,but still puzzle in it!(2002/03/7 10:29)
davidvancamp对大家说: For REUSE, in a large organization, RUP
must be greatly enhanced. I may post an article on this in the near future.(2002/03/7
10:30)
paddychen对davidvancamp说: I think RUP may more fit than XP
in big RT design, do you think so?(2002/03/7 10:30)
javalover对davidvancamp说: Can you tell something about it?(2002/03/7
10:30)
davidvancamp对大家说: What puzzles you about use cases?(2002/03/7
10:30)
lakedai进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:29)
415918对davidvancamp说: dave,what do you think about AOP--aspect-oriented
programming?(2002/03/7 10:30)
davidvancamp对大家说: I am not as familiar with aspect-oriented
as I would like to be -- I don't feel qualified to comment right now(2002/03/7
10:31)
415918对davidvancamp说: ok,thanks(2002/03/7 10:31)
gigix对davidvancamp说: Dave, which language(s) do you like?(2002/03/7
10:32)
liaofe对大家说: Mr,how we u(2002/03/7 10:32)
davidvancamp对大家说: Use cases simply try to show the relationship
between system features and the workers that will use the system, and provide
the overally steps needed to perform the work(2002/03/7 10:32)
paddychen对大家说: I feel very difficult to indentify acotors.(2002/03/7
10:32)
davidvancamp对大家说: My primary language lately is Java, but
I like C++ a lot.(2002/03/7 10:32)
speeding进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:32)
415918对davidvancamp说: what is the final factor to make a
decision about technology in a project?(2002/03/7 10:33)
shenqw进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:33)
shenqw对大家说: About resue between multiple projects: Resue
what? only some function or procedure?(2002/03/7 10:33)
davidvancamp对大家说: Actors represent the basic roles played
by users of the system (and may also be external systems that may interact with
your system.) Avoid specific titles, concentrate o(2002/03/7 10:33)
davidvancamp对大家说: on the roles performed when choosing actors.(2002/03/7
10:34)
liaofe对大家说: Mr,how we use the design patterns in larger scale?(2002/03/7
10:34)
liaofe对davidvancamp说: Mr,how we use the design patterns in
larger scale?(2002/03/7 10:34)
shaojl对davidvancamp说: I use RUP and Powerbuilder ,can you
give me a advice?(2002/03/7 10:34)
paddychen进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:34)
davidvancamp对大家说: Reuse may focus on anything of value, but
'higher-level' chunks will provide greater benefit. For example, EJB's or very
important processing rules(2002/03/7 10:35)
davidvancamp对大家说: RUP-PB -- I would need more specifics.
There are no bariers to using these together.(2002/03/7 10:35)
idlecrook进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:35)
supershan离开了聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:36)
illfly进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:36)
chi001进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:36)
chi001对gigix说: do you think that CMM is appropriate to chinese
software project? Is the realization of CMM difficult(2002/03/7 10:36)
davidvancamp对大家说: Design patterns provide reusable 'templates'
indicating how to organize some system at some level. Architectural patterns provide
higher level views. Does that help?(2002/03/7 10:37)
shenqw对umlchina说: thanks(2002/03/7 10:37)
idlecrook进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:36)
davidvancamp对大家说: CMM is appropriate when the goals of CMM
meet the goals of your organization. Every project is at some level of CMM. Knowing
your level is key to improving your repeatabi(2002/03/7 10:38)
gigix对davidvancamp说: I'm interested in "Architectural
patterns". Can you introduce that?(2002/03/7 10:38)
davidvancamp对大家说: repeatability / reliability / etc.(2002/03/7
10:38)
415918对davidvancamp说: is there a general approach to architecture
and design a J2EE application?(2002/03/7 10:38)
liaofe对davidvancamp说: could you give me some advice when
I try to use design patterns in OA(office automation) system?(2002/03/7 10:38)
sysword进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:38)
lakedai离开了聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:39)
davidvancamp对大家说: I recommend the book "Patterns of
Software Architecture" which I do not have handy right now -- I believe its
pub by Addison-Wesley(2002/03/7 10:39)
liaofe对davidvancamp说: yes ,I have it,but not accomplish(2002/03/7
10:39)
gigix对davidvancamp说: I'm going to look for this book. Bye
now.(2002/03/7 10:40)
chi001对gigix说: 你觉得一个150人的公司，实现2级或3级需要多长的时间去适应？(2002/03/7
10:40)
davidvancamp对大家说: J2EE -- no there is no general approach.
However, many books have been published on this. Also, Java Design Patterns may
help.(2002/03/7 10:40)
sunchilli进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:40)
forrest315进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:40)
bungee_jumping进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:40)
davidvancamp对大家说: Are there further questions or any I missed?(2002/03/7
10:41)
cocia进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:40)
chi001对gigix说: 你的意思：不一定有这个必要？那你对一个软件公司的项目管理水平的提高有什么建议？(2002/03/7
10:42)
415918对davidvancamp说: but i think the J2EE archtecture is
well predefined before we start a project,what we can do is structure of components--framework
according to software quality index(2002/03/7 10:42)
gigix对davidvancamp说: Why you like C++ more than Java?(2002/03/7
10:42)
gtop进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:42)
gigix对davidvancamp说: For C++'s freedom?(2002/03/7 10:43)
davidvancamp对大家说: what do you mean by 'quality index'?(2002/03/7
10:43)
liaofe对davidvancamp说: I am busy with my article about uml
and oa,but I found it hard to anlysis oa system(use domino/notes platform) in
OOA ,could you give me some advice?(2002/03/7 10:44)
colinshen对davidvancamp说: would you tell us how you begin
to design NASA project?(2002/03/7 10:44)
415918对davidvancamp说: non-function consideration,such as
scalability,extendability(2002/03/7 10:44)
davidvancamp对大家说: my answer seems to be lost -- C++ vs Java
-- actually I prefer Java due to simplicity & portability(2002/03/7 10:44)
paddychen进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:44)
chi001对大家说: My company have 150 devepers,We want to improve
our Project managerment level,Do you give me some advice? thanks!(2002/03/7 10:44)
gigix对davidvancamp说: :)(2002/03/7 10:45)
icegoblin进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:44)
davidvancamp对大家说: What are you having dificulty with e.g.
analysing OA System?(2002/03/7 10:45)
notyy进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:45)
liaofe对davidvancamp说: oh,I means it hard to do by domino/notes
.(2002/03/7 10:46)
cajan2进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:45)
davidvancamp对大家说: I began the NASA project (comming in to
an ongoing project) by analysing (informally) the needs / goals / concerns of
the project, forming opinions and developing an(2002/03/7 10:46)
davidvancamp对大家说: approach that seemed appropriate, based
on my experience. I then designed an inital framework, orgainized a development
team and began development and targeted training(2002/03/7 10:47)
gigix对davidvancamp说: 75% Chinese companies are under 50 people.
Does CMM and RUP fit?(2002/03/7 10:47)
davidvancamp对大家说: I have not used domino/notes(2002/03/7
10:48)
shenqw进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:48)
shenqw对davidvancamp说: How may developers in your NASA project?(2002/03/7
10:48)
gigix对davidvancamp说: Maybe agile methods will better to our
Chinese companies?(2002/03/7 10:48)
simaetin进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:47)
davidvancamp对大家说: RUP needs to be customized and scaled to
any project. You could use elements of it for any size project. You might need
to enhance it depending on your goals and needs.(2002/03/7 10:49)
liaofe对davidvancamp说: Mr,do you think it valuable to descripte
the workflow model in UML,since it could in WfDL(workflow define laguage)? Now
I am busy my article about UML.(2002/03/7 10:50)
davidvancamp对大家说: The entire NASA project consisted, at max,
of about 160 developers. My team was around 10 developers and I consulted / mentored
other teams(2002/03/7 10:50)
forrest315对davidvancamp说: Do you have a experience in Workflow
Engine?(2002/03/7 10:51)
wxrjabber进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:50)
colinshen对davidvancamp说: would you use XP or RUP style in
your NASA project?(2002/03/7 10:51)
davidvancamp对大家说: All methods should be 'agile' :) The most
important part of any software process improvement is to be able to adapt to changing
needs and to monitor results(2002/03/7 10:51)
wxrjabber进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:50)
easeby进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:51)
xuyunxi进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:51)
davidvancamp对大家说: re - workflow -- do you mean a specific
tool or workflow modeling / implementation in general?(2002/03/7 10:52)
liaofe对davidvancamp说: modeling(2002/03/7 10:52)
cajan2对liaofe说: why do you try to OOA in Domino/Notes?You
need not to use OOA in Domino/Notes ,I think(2002/03/7 10:53)
davidvancamp对大家说: I encorporated many aspects of XP in the
NASA project. RUP did not then exist, however the large-scale process was evolved
based on needs and experiences.(2002/03/7 10:53)
easeby进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:52)
wxrjabber进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:52)
wxrjabber进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:52)
chummy_jun进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:52)
chi001对gigix说: thanks(2002/03/7 10:53)
gigix对davidvancamp说: Ah? XP in so large project? Is it still
under-controll?(2002/03/7 10:53)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: Could you give me some suggestion
about the process, if the degree of programmer is not so good.(2002/03/7 10:54)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: As far as I known, the XP has high
requirement to the capabilities of the developers.(2002/03/7 10:54)
davidvancamp对大家说: XP-type practices were used at the team
level, and yes they worked very well(2002/03/7 10:54)
shenqw进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:55)
shenqw对davidvancamp说: Dose the NASA project use Black/White
box testing?(2002/03/7 10:55)
davidvancamp对大家说: XP recomends pair programming of experienced
& junior developers. I've done this informally(2002/03/7 10:55)
liaofe对大家说: (to cajan2)why?because I want to model oa system
with uml(2002/03/7 10:56)
davidvancamp对大家说: I also use weekly workshops to help train
members(2002/03/7 10:56)
gigix对davidvancamp说: And refactoring? I think it's the most
important portion of XP.(2002/03/7 10:56)
老狼2000进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:56)
davidvancamp对大家说: I highly recomend refactoring -- it is
key to developing good systems.(2002/03/7 10:57)
cocia对liaofe说: Is it not same to other software project?
about OA.(2002/03/7 10:57)
cajan2对liaofe说: UML is unified language,so lots of things
other than OO can be modeled with UML(2002/03/7 10:58)
paddychen进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:58)
paddychen对davidvancamp说: how you control the bugs that may
appear in your XP process?(2002/03/7 10:58)
davidvancamp对大家说: Indeed, I cannot understand how a reasonably
sized project could be done with OUT refactoring!(2002/03/7 10:58)
davidvancamp对大家说: bugs -- integrate often. also, run complexity
metrics to identify poorly organized code and schedule code reviews(2002/03/7
10:59)
liaofe对davidvancamp说: (to cajan2) but I(2002/03/7 10:59)
qphu进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:59)
liaofe对cajan2说: but ,(2002/03/7 11:00)
davidvancamp对大家说: I give some recomendations on using code
metrics in my Best Practices article(2002/03/7 11:00)
liaofe对cajan2说: b(2002/03/7 11:00)
wxrjabber进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 10:59)
liaofe对cajan2说: but(2002/03/7 11:00)
gigix对davidvancamp说: And when you refactoring, which testing
tool and integration tool you use?(2002/03/7 11:00)
davidvancamp对大家说: I also provide a reference to a NASA article
on code metrics in that same article(2002/03/7 11:00)
liaofe对cajan2说: but(2002/03/7 11:00)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: As for the refactoring, maybe what
we have changed is only the attitude. We always did that and were frustrated by
it, but now we can accept it peacefully.(2002/03/7 11:00)
cajan2对davidvancamp说: Why C3 project became to be interrupted,
someone say that Beck himself cannot finish a project successfully(2002/03/7 11:01)
davidvancamp对大家说: Lately, I have been using JUnit, but in
the past I have built my own.(2002/03/7 11:01)
davidvancamp对大家说: I know nothing of the outcome of the C3
project other than what has been published. I doubt that 'Beck cannot finish'
a project(2002/03/7 11:02)
davidvancamp对大家说: Refactoring is a nice name for what I have
been doing my whole career -- and so have many other people.(2002/03/7 11:02)
paddychen进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:02)
shenqw对davidvancamp说: Dose the NASA project use Black/White
box testing?(2002/03/7 11:03)
davidvancamp对大家说: NASA test everything every which way they
can.(2002/03/7 11:03)
415918对davidvancamp说: you know,most of us has a good knowledge
about OOP,but we are short of OOA&D,any advices for acquiring it?(2002/03/7
11:03)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: Did the programmers make a line to
line trace for testing?(2002/03/7 11:04)
colinshen对davidvancamp说: what's your suggestion in using
XP to develop projects?(2002/03/7 11:04)
davidvancamp对大家说: NASA also uses redundant design / implementation
to form internal consistency checks at runtime(2002/03/7 11:04)
paddychen进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:03)
lookbaby进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:03)
tntroger进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:03)
wxrjabber进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:03)
freekany进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:04)
freekany进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:04)
freekany进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:04)
freekany进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:04)
davidvancamp对大家说: There are many good books and articles.
Check those on my web page. Also check those at objectmentor.com (Bob Martin)
and korson-mcgregor.com(2002/03/7 11:05)
shenqw对davidvancamp说: "redundant design / implementation","
consistency checks at runtime"? Can you give some more detail(2002/03/7 11:06)
davidvancamp对大家说: An excellent source for finding oo information
is cetus -- I can check for the link if you need it(2002/03/7 11:06)
tntroger进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:05)
liaofe进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:05)
umlchina进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:05)
gigix对davidvancamp说: Would you please recommend some JOYFUL
articles to Chinese developers? I'll be honor to translate them.(2002/03/7 11:07)
415918对davidvancamp说: i also visit www.cetus-links.org often(2002/03/7
11:07)
老狼2000进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:06)
davidvancamp对大家说: NASA would assign two seperate teams to
design and develop essentially the same (critical) feature and the results from
BOTH must be the same at runtime for the system to(2002/03/7 11:07)
davidvancamp对大家说: perform the feature, otherwise an error
is reported.(2002/03/7 11:07)
liaofe对cajan2说: (just sory by exceptions) but I think it
better to use OOA when using UML.(2002/03/7 11:08)
davidvancamp对大家说: I do not understand 'JOYFUL' articles?(2002/03/7
11:08)
sunchilli进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:07)
davidvancamp对大家说: To me, it is not possibliby to truely use
UML without OOA(2002/03/7 11:09)
davidvancamp对大家说: I'm not sure what you mean by 'line-to-line
trace for testing'(2002/03/7 11:10)
415918对davidvancamp说: what is your basic experience after
developing software for more than 20 years(2002/03/7 11:10)
liaofe对cajan2说: what's more ,for some reason,I have to use
UML to model OA system which in Domino/notes,do you have any experice or advice
to me?(2002/03/7 11:10)
davidvancamp对大家说: re- suggestion using XP -- can you be more
specific?(2002/03/7 11:10)
qphu对大家说: Hi, david, I have a question on CBD, I want to
know what it is like now in practice.(2002/03/7 11:10)
shenqw对davidvancamp说: Thanks, but i thank 1:1 , the system
can only report error , while not 3 teams, then 2:1 can get more useful information
:)(2002/03/7 11:10)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: "L to L tracing" means
testing the internal state beside the interfaces of the object implementation.(2002/03/7
11:11)
davidvancamp对大家说: I've been developing for ~17 yrs, not 20+,
but otherwise, I've many experiences -- more specifically???(2002/03/7 11:11)
gigix对davidvancamp说: "Classical" or "Excellent",
just like "No silver bullet"(2002/03/7 11:11)
heyongbin进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:11)
qphu对大家说: :), oh , so many quesiton devoured mine(2002/03/7
11:12)
davidvancamp对大家说: I have no experience modeling for Domino/Notes,
but I suggest using UML Activity diagrams to model business workflow, as they
currently exist (if they do) as an initial a(2002/03/7 11:12)
davidvancamp对大家说: approach to analysis.(2002/03/7 11:12)
qphu对davidvancamp说: Hi, david, is CBD popular in practice
now?(2002/03/7 11:12)
415918对davidvancamp说: such as :the reason of a failure or
successful software project(2002/03/7 11:12)
davidvancamp对大家说: EJBs are currently gaining much popularity
for CBD -- they are very good and fun to work with.(2002/03/7 11:13)
cajan2对liaofe说: I cannot read my speech now,:>)(2002/03/7
11:13)
davidvancamp对大家说: Well, 1:1 vs 2:1 -- both are better than
the usual 1:0! You reach a point where to much redundancy is simply too much,
though.(2002/03/7 11:14)
sunchilli瞪大了眼睛,很讶异地对umlchina说: CBD? center business district??(2002/03/7
11:14)
cajan2对liaofe说: I think the traditional dataflow/business
flow is better to Domino/Notes develepment project(2002/03/7 11:14)
qphu对davidvancamp说: Hi, david, I have a quesiton, Is CBD
popular in practice?(2002/03/7 11:14)
simaetin对sunchilli说: component based development(2002/03/7
11:15)
liaofe对cajan2说: Mr,I am hard to find many design patterns
in specific aspect,but not the 24 ones in the book "design patterns".yes?(2002/03/7
11:15)
liaofe对davidvancamp说: Mr,I am hard to find many design patterns
in specific aspect,but not the 24 ones in the book "design patterns".yes?(11:15)(2002/03/7
11:15)
davidvancamp对大家说: I don't usually test internal states --
I am more concerned with knowning that the public contract is met. Code reviews
usually suffice for evaluating the implementation.(2002/03/7 11:15)
sunchilli瞪大了眼睛,很讶异地对simaetin说: thanks. i'm a newer.(2002/03/7
11:15)
gigix对大家说: Well, there's some pattern books introduction
at my website(2002/03/7 11:16)
gigix对大家说: http://gigix.topcool.net(2002/03/7 11:16)
415918对davidvancamp说: what is major drawback of EJB?(2002/03/7
11:16)
qphu进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:15)
davidvancamp对大家说: Activity diagrams can be used for business
flow(2002/03/7 11:16)
gigix对大家说: Some will published by Tsinghua Press(2002/03/7
11:16)
liaofe对davidvancamp说: Mr,I am hard to find many design patterns
in specific aspect,but not the 24 ones in the book "design patterns".yes?(11:15)(11:15)(2002/03/7
11:16)
davidvancamp对大家说: CBD is definitely gaining popularity here
in the US(2002/03/7 11:17)
cajan2对liaofe说: I read some design patterns,they are base
for infrastructure,but you should use them carefully(2002/03/7 11:17)
liaofe对gigix说: thinks(2002/03/7 11:17)
davidvancamp对大家说: finding design patterns -- I believe someone
has published a catalog -- check the book sources. I may be publishing a 'pattern
digest' on my web page in the near future.(2002/03/7 11:18)
qphu对davidvancamp说: and where to get the components(2002/03/7
11:18)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: you website address please...(2002/03/7
11:18)
qphu对davidvancamp说: I have reading somebooks on CBD, but
there is no general conception on COMPONENT,(2002/03/7 11:19)
gigix对davidvancamp说: I have a website about patterns. Would
you please permit me to use your contents? My website is gigix.topcool.net.(2002/03/7
11:19)
davidvancamp对大家说: EJBs should be carefully considered --
they are best when a common set of business objects will be reused by many systems.
Overhead and complexity are primary drawbacks.(2002/03/7 11:19)
sun221进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:19)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: How about the status of COM technology
in US?(2002/03/7 11:19)
qphu对davidvancamp说: David, how culd I find an good example
of a component-based software(2002/03/7 11:20)
chummy_jun离开了聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:20)
shenqw进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:20)
qphu对davidvancamp说: I want to get a direct feeling(2002/03/7
11:20)
davidvancamp对大家说: Components can be purchased from a number
of sources -- biggest one is www.componentsource.com(2002/03/7 11:20)
sunchilli进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:20)
qphu对davidvancamp说: and no free ones?(2002/03/7 11:20)
davidvancamp对大家说: my web site is www.capital.net/~dvc(2002/03/7
11:20)
liaofe对gigix说: but I how to enter gigix.topcool.net?(2002/03/7
11:20)
seeseax进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:20)
davidvancamp对大家说: gigix -- you are welcome to link to my
pages(2002/03/7 11:21)
415918对davidvancamp说: would you like to use a framework in
a web-based application,such as Expresso,struts?(2002/03/7 11:21)
qphu对davidvancamp说: and open source is populor these days,
how about free component?(2002/03/7 11:21)
gigix对davidvancamp说: And can I translate your articles?(2002/03/7
11:21)
davidvancamp对大家说: I don't use COM. It seems to me that fewer
and fewer projects are specifically programming to COM these days due to portability
issues(2002/03/7 11:21)
qphu对davidvancamp说: which kind of compoent is most popular
now?(2002/03/7 11:22)
415918对davidvancamp说: And what do you think about web services(2002/03/7
11:22)
davidvancamp对大家说: There are many books on CBD -- a java ejb
book might be good if you are a java developer(2002/03/7 11:22)
品雪进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:23)
qphu对davidvancamp说: oh, I am familiar with C++(2002/03/7
11:23)
seeseax对davidvancamp说: how do you think about agent-oriented
programming/agent-oriented software engineering?, thanks(2002/03/7 11:23)
chummy_jun进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:22)
davidvancamp对大家说: I develop frameworks when I can identify
a common architectural need for multiple applications. Any time that is true,
I recommend a framework-based approach(2002/03/7 11:23)
davidvancamp对大家说: Freeware is always nice!! However, many
US corporations stay away from freeware due to support concerns.(2002/03/7 11:24)
415918对davidvancamp说: how to get a framework if we must construct
it by ourselves?(2002/03/7 11:25)
qphu对davidvancamp说: david, do you think I could construct
a software with components more quickly if they are available?(2002/03/7 11:25)
cber进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:24)
davidvancamp对大家说: gigix -- yes, please feel free to translate
my articles. Just provide me with a hyperlink so I can link to your translations.(2002/03/7
11:25)
gigix对davidvancamp说: But I think: product need a big company.
Just like Java.(2002/03/7 11:25)
gigix对davidvancamp说: Ok, no problem. I like your "Reuse
the weel" Very Much!(2002/03/7 11:25)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: But framework always becomes a bottleneck
of the whole application when the new requirement come.(2002/03/7 11:26)
colinshen进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:25)
davidvancamp对大家说: I'm not sure, but Bob Martin's new book
might address CBD for C++. Otherwise, I suggest you check for a recently published
book.(2002/03/7 11:26)
idlecrook进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:26)
davidvancamp对大家说: Designing and building a framework is similar
to that for applications, but the level of expertise, testing and documentation
must be higher. Generally, you should first(2002/03/7 11:27)
davidvancamp对大家说: try to find a framework to purchase due
to these and cost concerns, if you can find one that meets your needs.(2002/03/7
11:27)
davidvancamp对大家说: qphu -- I'm not sure what you are asking
-- the cost of construction of a component depends on it's size and complexity.(2002/03/7
11:28)
paddychen进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:29)
paddychen对大家说: Davi, do you think documentation must be first
than coding?(2002/03/7 11:29)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: In our team, our precursors designed
a FW. But now we find some drawback, and they are hard to be fixed since we have
to consider the compatibility for the released produ(2002/03/7 11:29)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: product(2002/03/7 11:29)
colinshen对大家说: what's your suggestion in using XP to develop
projects?(2002/03/7 11:29)
qphu对大家说: david , what do you think of software reliability?(2002/03/7
11:29)
davidvancamp对大家说: Frameworks that are well designed will
not 'bottleneck' a process, particularly if they are developed as part of 1 ..
3 projects using refactoring and code sharing.(2002/03/7 11:29)
cajan2进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:30)
cajan2对davidvancamp说: If a new framework is needed,the application
based on the framework is urge,how to harmonize the project progress(2002/03/7
11:30)
qphu对大家说: there are so many reliability model available,
are they practical?(2002/03/7 11:30)
gigix对davidvancamp说: Almost every language is come with a
platform, how do you think about this? Does this harmful?(2002/03/7 11:30)
wxrjabber进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:29)
davidvancamp对大家说: I do high-level design/documentation followed
by code/test/refactor cycles(2002/03/7 11:30)
colinshen对davidvancamp说: what's your suggestion in using
XP to develop projects?(2002/03/7 11:30)
qphu对大家说: I get some feelings that they are nonsense, how
do u think?(2002/03/7 11:30)
qphu对davidvancamp说: sorry , I have not select my color(2002/03/7
11:31)
davidvancamp对大家说: The biggest problem with a framework-based
approach is that the designers try to create the finished framework up front.
This is wrong. Design/implement only what you kno(2002/03/7 11:31)
davidvancamp对大家说: know you need for 1..3 current projects
and coordinate development. This can be a bit tricky and requires experience.(2002/03/7
11:32)
qphu对davidvancamp说: Hi, david, what do u think of software
reliability(2002/03/7 11:32)
paddychen进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:32)
davidvancamp对大家说: Alternately, develop 2..3 closely related
products as a coordinated effort and slowly refactor a framework out of those.(2002/03/7
11:32)
qphu对davidvancamp说: is it as important as in 60s?(2002/03/7
11:33)
cajan2对davidvancamp说: I have atteneded a project with a new
framework and a new application,there are so many bugs in framework,the app developer
became so painful(2002/03/7 11:33)
davidvancamp对大家说: I don't use any formal reliability models(2002/03/7
11:33)
qphu对davidvancamp说: oh(2002/03/7 11:33)
qphu对davidvancamp说: then no comments?(2002/03/7 11:34)
glietcch进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:33)
davidvancamp对大家说: language + platform -- depends on how implemented.
Java is good, but has problems. I haven't used Forte, but heard good things --
main issue to me is propietary system(2002/03/7 11:34)
simaetin进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:35)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: A question not closely related to
the technology: How to deal with the press from boss who don't know the technology
so much when you request more time to code review, re(2002/03/7 11:35)
davidvancamp对大家说: software reliability is a huge topic --
not my specialty. I do provide some suggestions in my Best Practices article.(2002/03/7
11:35)
cajan2对davidvancamp说: Furthermore,there is another project
which is the upfront,they finished it early,we need their cooperation while debugging(2002/03/7
11:35)
chenjp进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:35)
qphu对davidvancamp说: what do u think is the most core techinque
in CBD?(2002/03/7 11:35)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: refactoring and sth like that?(2002/03/7
11:35)
seeseax对davidvancamp说: how do you think about agent-oriented
programming/agent-oriented software engineering? thanks(2002/03/7 11:35)
davidvancamp对大家说: qphu -- important as in 60s? don't understand.(2002/03/7
11:35)
gigix对davidvancamp说: For developer, convenience or freedom
, which is more important?(2002/03/7 11:36)
davidvancamp对大家说: A poorly designed fw is a terrible thing!!!
I'm sorry for you.(2002/03/7 11:36)
qphu对davidvancamp说: it's the time Software Crisis accur.(2002/03/7
11:36)
qphu对davidvancamp说: CBD has not been popular in China,(2002/03/7
11:36)
seeseax离开了聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:37)
davidvancamp对大家说: Dealing with managers/clients that don't
understand issues is always difficult. The best advice I can offer is to try to
get in thier shoes and understand what they see a(2002/03/7 11:37)
qphu对davidvancamp说: how to deal with CBD?(2002/03/7 11:37)
microstone进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:37)
qphu对davidvancamp说: Which technique is most inportant?(2002/03/7
11:38)
seeseax进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:37)
davidvancamp对大家说: as important / crucial and try to express
your problems in thier terms. Also try using the 'planning game' to help get them
more involved and better understanding(2002/03/7 11:38)
@悟空@进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:38)
qphu对davidvancamp说: component liabiary?(2002/03/7 11:38)
davidvancamp对大家说: I could not identify any most important
core technique of CBD other than reuse(2002/03/7 11:39)
cajan2对davidvancamp说: There are lots of interface between
two projects,but people in the upfront project are not ready to cooperate with
you always.(2002/03/7 11:39)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: In ur opinion, what's the motivation
of creativity for developers if we are surrounded with all EXISTED patttern, component
and framework...(2002/03/7 11:39)
davidvancamp对大家说: I am not expert in agent-oriented approaches(2002/03/7
11:39)
davidvancamp对大家说: gigix -- convienience or freedom??? don't
understand(2002/03/7 11:39)
seeseax进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:39)
@悟空@进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:39)
seeseax进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:40)
cajan2对davidvancamp说: sometimes you cannot do anything just
because people in the upfront project are on leave,they say "we have not
problems,you just do yours"(2002/03/7 11:40)
davidvancamp对大家说: Component libraries are critical when the
number of components available becomes unmanageable if you do not have one. First
get the process down and insure high quality(2002/03/7 11:41)
品雪离开了聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:42)
davidvancamp对大家说: XP talks about ways to get clients to cooperate
with project development. Fundamentally, you must try to understand thier issues
and concerns and learn to talk to them in(2002/03/7 11:42)
cajan2对davidvancamp说: And the environment of the product
is complex than just a computer network,they are lots of rack and circuit board(2002/03/7
11:42)
davidvancamp对大家说: thier language. Non-technical people do
not respond well to technical issues. Business people understand business issues.
For example, if you can convince them that follo(2002/03/7 11:43)
davidvancamp对大家说: following your advice will result in cost
savings and greater return on investment (ROI) you will get a business person's
attention(2002/03/7 11:43)
gigix对davidvancamp说: e.g. C# is more convenient, C++ is more
free. How do you think about them?(2002/03/7 11:44)
illfly离开了聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:44)
simaetin对gigix说: what's the biggest different between Java
and C#?(2002/03/7 11:45)
davidvancamp对大家说: Probably, dealing with non-technical clients
is the most difficult problem for us technical people, but we must learn to do
this effectively if we hope to influence(2002/03/7 11:45)
cajan2对davidvancamp说: The competition for the debugging environment
is severe,people become more and more irascibile then(2002/03/7 11:45)
davidvancamp对大家说: thier choices(2002/03/7 11:45)
davidvancamp对大家说: I'm not sure why C# is needed over Java
-- it does offer language improvements, but why yet-another-C? Java truely added
value over C in portability, simplicity(2002/03/7 11:46)
davidvancamp对大家说: As for biggest diff betw Java & C#
-- I do not know C# well enough to compare details(2002/03/7 11:47)
cajan2对davidvancamp说: How to get the levels of Use-case ?(2002/03/7
11:47)
dingyilay进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:47)
davidvancamp对大家说: debuggin environment?(2002/03/7 11:47)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: In ur opinion, where's the motivation
of creativity for developers since we are surrounded with all EXISTED patttern,
component and framework...(2002/03/7 11:47)
davidvancamp对大家说: what 'levels of use case' are you refering
to?(2002/03/7 11:47)
davidvancamp对大家说: patterns are just commonly recurring solutions
-- I don't see how they might stifle creativity(2002/03/7 11:48)
cajan2对davidvancamp说: cock say there are 3 levels:summary,user-goal,subfunction(2002/03/7
11:48)
davidvancamp对大家说: Frameworks and Components are partial solutions
-- there is still plenty of room for creative solutions(2002/03/7 11:48)
paddychen离开了聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:49)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: you mean creativity is within how
to organize them?(2002/03/7 11:49)
paddychen进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:50)
dingyilay对davidvancamp说: can you give us about emblbed system
develp?(2002/03/7 11:50)
davidvancamp对大家说: What 'levels' of use-cases you need will
depend on your needs and the level to which you feel you need to drive-down your
analysis. I do not usually go that far.(2002/03/7 11:50)
colinshen进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:50)
colinshen对davidvancamp说: would you prefer to capture requirements
by Use Case?(2002/03/7 11:50)
davidvancamp对大家说: High-level Use cases can benefit understanding
of the business environment (they complement workflow/activity diagrams)(2002/03/7
11:51)
gigix对davidvancamp说: About patterns, which books you like?(2002/03/7
11:51)
dingyilay对davidvancamp说: but i don't konow how to get the
use case from emblebed system(2002/03/7 11:51)
davidvancamp对大家说: System-level usecases provide a good description
of the external interface a project must implement(2002/03/7 11:51)
davidvancamp对大家说: However, getting too detailed with use-cases
often results and a more structured design -- not OO -- see Tim Korsons articles
on use cases at korson-mcgregor.com(2002/03/7 11:52)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: within how to apply them in the business
field where a stranger place for most of developers, it's a bit of paradox(2002/03/7
11:52)
cajan2对davidvancamp说: what is the association between the
Use-case and module?(2002/03/7 11:52)
davidvancamp对大家说: patterns -- obviously the key book is Gamma,
et. al. Patterns of Software Architecture is very good. Also, the PLoP books are
good. Others are more discussions on pattern(2002/03/7 11:54)
davidvancamp对大家说: and OOD, etc.(2002/03/7 11:54)
dingyilay对davidvancamp说: ut i don't konow how to get the
use case from emblebed system(2002/03/7 11:54)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: Could you issue any predict, what
will be after OO in term of development paradigm?(2002/03/7 11:54)
davidvancamp对大家说: yes, capture requirements via use cases
is a very good practice(2002/03/7 11:54)
cajan2对davidvancamp说: Go supper,bye(2002/03/7 11:54)
davidvancamp对大家说: creativity is in problem solving -- frameworks,
components and patterns do not solve your specific problems, they only help(2002/03/7
11:55)
dingyilay对davidvancamp说: can you give us some advise about
emblebed system(2002/03/7 11:55)
415918进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:55)
415918对davidvancamp说: does pattern become a mainstream OO
technology in US?(2002/03/7 11:55)
davidvancamp对大家说: I have not done embedded system programming(2002/03/7
11:55)
dingyilay对davidvancamp说: ok(2002/03/7 11:56)
davidvancamp对大家说: However, embedded systems tend to interface
with other systems, not users, so your actors will be those systems and your use
cases will be the interfaces(2002/03/7 11:56)
davidvancamp对大家说: simaetin -- what is the question?(2002/03/7
11:56)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: could you predict if it is possbile
some day in the near future, OO paradigm will be substituted by something else?(2002/03/7
11:57)
vimtaa进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:57)
dingyilay对davidvancamp说: i think it's diffcult to get use
case and stat change from system(2002/03/7 11:57)
davidvancamp对大家说: Assoc betw use case & module -- not
necessarilly any -- depends on your requirements & solution. Use cases usually
correspond to a sequence diagram(2002/03/7 11:57)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: could you smell the taste?(2002/03/7
11:57)
davidvancamp对大家说: OO is evolving -- CBD is one such evolution,
agile development is another. I expect that the evolution will continue(2002/03/7
11:58)
dongyeye离开了聊天室.(2002/03/7 11:58)
davidvancamp对大家说: patterns are not a technology -- they are
a simple documentation & teaching technique(2002/03/7 11:59)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: Yeah, as far as creativity in problem-solving,
it's ubiquitous, not the privacy of software developers. :)(2002/03/7 11:59)
davidvancamp对大家说: state changes should be modelled with state
diagrams not use cases(2002/03/7 12:00)
notyy进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 12:00)
notyy对大家说: what do you think about AOP?(2002/03/7 12:00)
415918对davidvancamp说: but it is not easy to identify and
document a pattern(2002/03/7 12:00)
davidvancamp对大家说: OO will be substitued by something, I'm
quite certain. What remains to be seen. I have no crystal ball(2002/03/7 12:01)
davidvancamp对大家说: AOP -- I am not expert in this -- its on
my to do list.(2002/03/7 12:01)
davidvancamp对大家说: As you become more familiar with patterns,
you begin to develop a 'vocabulary' of patterns. This enables you find and apply
them better. It's a learning process.(2002/03/7 12:02)
simaetin对notyy说: whisper: what AOP stands for?(2002/03/7
12:02)
415918对davidvancamp说: dave,would you like to answer some
questions by emailing you?(2002/03/7 12:03)
davidvancamp对大家说: Many people here in the US and Europe have
formed 'Pattern Discussion Groups' to meet and discuss patterns. Usually they
pick a pattern, everyone reads-up and then they m(2002/03/7 12:03)
simaetin对notyy说: agent?(2002/03/7 12:03)
davidvancamp对大家说: meet and discuss it(2002/03/7 12:03)
davidvancamp对大家说: AOP = Aspect Oriented Programming(2002/03/7
12:03)
davidvancamp对大家说: Identifying new patterns is a bit of an
art. Try it. You'll get better over time.(2002/03/7 12:04)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: Any good resource online about AOP?(2002/03/7
12:04)
davidvancamp对大家说: The key to identifying a new pattern, however,
is to learning that others have independantly found the same solution and then
truely determining that, when properly appli(2002/03/7 12:04)
colinshen进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 12:04)
colinshen对davidvancamp说: just as you say "OO will be
substitued by something," would you tell us what's problem with OO?(2002/03/7
12:04)
davidvancamp对大家说: applied, the pattern leads to a 'good'
or improved result (other than some other approach)(2002/03/7 12:05)
notyy对大家说: simatin,you can find some on aspectj.org(2002/03/7
12:05)
davidvancamp对大家说: John Vlissides has written much on finding
and documenting patterns(2002/03/7 12:05)
415918对davidvancamp说: i will try because i think a pattern
is the form of reuse(2002/03/7 12:05)
laux进入聊天室.(2002/03/7 12:06)
simaetin对notyy说: no problem(2002/03/7 12:06)
davidvancamp对大家说: Problems with OO -- no lack of them, of
course. OO is hard. Very big projects push the limits of OO -- Hence CBD.(2002/03/7
12:06)
davidvancamp对大家说: Patterns are definitely a very good form
of reuse.(2002/03/7 12:07)
davidvancamp对大家说: IBM has developed a series of business
patterns in pattern-language format to help identify needs of business systems
and choose appropriate tools / architecture.(2002/03/7 12:07)
simaetin对davidvancamp说: Regarding to pattern, I believe that
more and more business area patterns will be identified and sorted in pattern
language.(2002/03/7 12:07)
415918对davidvancamp说: in fine grain patterns define a local
relation between objects(2002/03/7 12:08)
davidvancamp对大家说: OK -- we've run over time here - its my
bed time (east coast USA) Thank you all and good night(2002/03/7 12:08)
shenqw对大家说: Thanks a lot!(2002/03/7 12:09)
simaetin对大家说: I must leave now. Glad to be here talking with
you. thanks a lot.(2002/03/7 12:09)
simaetin对大家说: bye!(2002/03/7 12:09)
sun221对大家说: thanks very much(2002/03/7 12:09)
simaetin离开了聊天室.(2002/03/7 12:09)
colinshen对davidvancamp说: thank you very much!(2002/03/7 12:09)
415918对davidvancamp说: if coarse-grain we can define an architecture
by pattern lanuage(2002/03/7 12:09)
sun221对大家说: bye(2002/03/7 12:09)
415918对davidvancamp说: thanks,dave(2002/03/7 12:09)
davidvancamp离开了聊天室.(2002/03/7 12:09)
