| 第八期嘉宾聊天 | |
| 现场图片 | 
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北京时间2001年9月1日（星期六）10:00-12:00。
嘉宾：Alistair Cockburn。世界顶级OO专家，全球软件业最杰出的技术与书籍的奖项
Jolt Productivity Award的获奖书籍“Writing
Effective Use Cases”的作者，此书草稿可在此下载：http://www.umlforum.com/zippdf/writingeffectiveucs.zip
。著有的著名书籍文章还有：
“Surviving Object-Oriented Projects”
“Software Development as a Cooperative Game”
“Structuring Use Case with Goals”
acockburn进入聊天室.(10:39)
acockburn对大家说: i am here... are you?(10:41)
se_cn对acockburn说: hi(10:42)
se_cn对acockburn说: hello(10:42)
nankym进入聊天室.(10:42)
se_cn对acockburn说: i am here(10:42)
umlchina对acockburn说: hello, professor(10:42)
acockburn对umlchina说: if I may ask, who is "PigCanFly"
?? good name(10:42)
umlchina对acockburn说: please select this color(10:42)
acockburn对umlchina说: Hello, should I call you "UML
China" or Jiayu Pan(10:43)
umlchina对acockburn说: pigcanfly is his nickname(10:43)
acockburn对umlchina说: Think I did so...(10:43)
umlchina对acockburn说: it is up to you. I prefer "umlchina"(10:44)
umlchina对acockburn说: Is the speed ok?(10:44)
acockburn对ywjok说: I just clicked on "umlchina"
on the left side, and got a "script error"(10:44)
nankym对acockburn说: hello,may i ask some
questions?(10:44)
acockburn对ywjok说: ...will that matter?(10:45)
acockburn对ywjok说: 12 seconds from the time I type
until it shows up in my browser window(10:45)
acockburn对ywjok说: to namkym: I tried clicking on your
name on the left side, got a "script error"(10:45)
umlchina对acockburn说: oh,it doesn't matter, I
think(10:46)
se_cn对acockburn说: hi,u can refresh this page(10:47)
acockburn对ywjok说: namkym: go ahead with
questions(10:47)
umlchina对acockburn说: you can press F5(refresh) and try
again?(10:47)
nankym对acockburn说: why?(10:47)
se_cn对acockburn说: if u got a script error, refresh
this page(10:47)
acockburn对nankym说: testing... I refreshed page, then
clicked on namkym. does it show up this way to you?(10:49)
nankym对acockburn说: sorry,i just have something to
do,bye!wish you happy!(10:50)
umlchina对大家说: question in blue color(10:50)
acockburn对nankym说: do you prefer it when I type a
short reply like this?(10:50)
acockburn对nankym说: or do you prefer it when I type a
long reply that goes on a long time and fills up the text box into which I type
replies? Actually, how long does this thing accept an(10:51)
acockburn对nankym说: I received namkym's text in black,
actually(10:51)
acockburn对umlchina说: what do you mean, "question
in blue color:?(10:52)
acockburn对umlchina说: good - so when I clicked on
umlchina, it shows umlchina' name on the chat screen... evidently that iis
working(10:52)
ywjok进入聊天室.(10:52)
umlchina对acockburn说: I talk to audiences: please set
your color in blue when you ask professor question(10:53)
acockburn对umlchina说: all right, it seems this works
here... shall we simulate the real chat question and answer now?(10:54)
acockburn对umlchina说: oops, every time I refresh, i
have to remember to re-set the color to RED(10:54)
acockburn对umlchina说: OK, I'mwaiting now for a
question.(10:55)
umlchina对acockburn说: another way: you right click the
frame in screen center, select refresh on the popup menu(10:56)
umlchina对nankym说: Your question?(10:56)
acockburn对nankym说: Someon please ask any question,
just I know that one has been asked, and can test response.(10:58)
se_cn对acockburn说: nice to meet you(10:59)
umlchina对nankym说: It seems that your audience do not
get ready now.(10:59)
acockburn对se_cn说: Thank you, Very nice to be here. My
wife is impressed that someone in Beijing wants to talk with me :-)(11:00)
umlchina对acockburn说: Chinese publisher bought
copyright of your "Surviving Object-Oriented Project" from AW(11:01)
acockburn对se_cn说: If I could ask you, are you studying
or working programming somewhere (or both)(11:01)
se_cn对acockburn说: hehe, i have many question ,but i
don't know how to ask(11:01)
acockburn对umlchina说: Excellent... let me know the
places where you get stuck with my language - I use common American, not formal
English...(11:02)
acockburn对se_cn说: In that case, just ask anything,
because one question leads to the next, and after 5 questions, you arrive
finally at the one you wished you had asked first(11:03)
acockburn对umlchina说: Someone in China just translated
my Writing Effective Use Cases book - I was surprised at how many colloquialisms
I had put in there(11:04)
acockburn对umlchina说: In fact, as soon as you get done
with SOOP book, you should grab the rights to the WEUC book - it sells even more
copies...(11:04)
se_cn对acockburn说: SOOP?WEUC?(11:05)
acockburn对se_cn说: I think you should ask questions as
fast as you can type...(11:05)
acockburn对se_cn说: SOOP = Surviving Object Oriented
Projects book, WEUC = Writing Effective Use Cases book(11:06)
ywjok快要哭地对se_cn说: Sorry to our poor
English.(11:06)
acockburn对se_cn说: my new one will be ASD = Agile
Software Development(11:06)
acockburn对se_cn说: Better to ask too many questions and
not get them all answered, compared to not asking enough questions and watching
a silent screen(11:07)
umlchina对ywjok说: Just try to type something(11:07)
acockburn对umlchina说: Here's a question for you... what
is the background of thepeople who will be signing in on Saturday?(11:08)
se_cn对acockburn说: Can u tell me What's the goal of
UseCase?(11:08)
acockburn对umlchina说: I if have some idea, I can tune
the answers better to fit the reader(11:08)
evpu进入聊天室.(11:08)
umlchina对acockburn说: They are software developers in
software company(11:08)
acockburn对ywjok说: Good morning - may I ask, What is
your real name (in some English lettering)?(11:09)
se_cn对evpu说: hi(11:09)
evpu对se_cn说: hi(11:09)
acockburn对se_cn说: The purpose of a use case is to
describe the BEHAVIOR of a system, its interactions with its neighboring
systems...(11:09)
ywjok对acockburn说: Maybe it's work time now.(11:09)
acockburn对se_cn说: ...it does not show the data content
very well, it does not show the user interface design at all...(11:10)
se_cn对acockburn说: Use Case = Function Apart?(11:11)
ywjok对acockburn说: Nice to meet you! My real name is
hard to describe in English.(11:11)
acockburn对se_cn说: ... what it is good for is saying,
in a quite compact way, what the system should do...and what it should do when
things god wrong(11:11)
acockburn对ywjok说: Does that mean you're leaving? In
that case, have a good day.(11:11)
evpu对acockburn说: hi,would u like talk about how to
test a J2EE system?(11:12)
ywjok对acockburn说: But I want JOK as a JOKE to
everybody, and can send some happiness to them.(11:12)
acockburn对umlchina说: What programming languages are
they using? and using mainframe computers or personal computers?(11:12)
evpu对umlchina说: it's so slowly refreshed here?(11:12)
acockburn对evpu说: Unfortunately, I am not comfortable
enough with J2EE systems to talk about testing them. sorry about that(11:14)
umlchina对acockburn说: In China, most company is working
on MS platform, developing on MS framework(11:14)
evpu对acockburn说: no matter.It's just my worried
about.(11:14)
umlchina对acockburn说: Rational and RUP are popular in
China, How about your opinion?(11:15)
evpu对umlchina说: hi,could u introduce the topic this
morning to me?(11:16)
acockburn对umlchina说: I'm afraid I don't have a very
high opinion... I need to be careful on the topic, since I disagree with them so
much... (of course you can ask about the disagreement :-)(11:17)
se_cn对evpu说: no topic(11:18)
ywjok对acockburn说: But I look forward to more Chinese
company like MS.(11:18)
acockburn对evpu说: I can talk about software development
processes, requirements, use case, object oriented design,(11:18)
acockburn对evpu说: ...project management, incremental
and iterative development, Smalltalk, client server design, ...(11:19)
acockburn对evpu说: ... some web / java / 3-tier
design... that's about it, I think(11:19)
umlchina对acockburn说: OK! Professor, it seems that
everything works except few people ask question.(11:19)
acockburn对evpu说: ...oh, and object-to-relational
mapping, design for testability...(11:19)
acockburn对evpu说: ...but I stay away from specific
tools and packages, because they change faster than I can keep up...(11:20)
evpu对umlchina说: and i can't think what meaning of this
concept,"test usecase".would u tell me some material?(11:20)
acockburn对evpu说: ...for those, I rely on commentary
from my colleagues, and visits to companies...(11:20)
acockburn对evpu说: ...it happens that I have not yet
visited a place doing J2EE, so I haven't seen iit in the flesh (so to
speak)(11:20)
wwh0058进入聊天室.(11:21)
acockburn对evpu说: please help- what do you mean
"test usecase"?(11:21)
acockburn对umlchina说: Well, the point was to test the
connection, and I think we've done that.(11:21)
evpu对acockburn说: wow,i think the design for test is
fit enough for me.(11:22)
umlchina对acockburn说: I will do some work make it
better(asking question), I have to leave now(11:22)
acockburn对umlchina说: ...Will it just be your company's
people on Saturday, or do you have any idea how many people will come? 10...
100?(11:22)
evpu对acockburn说: hehe,it's unknown to me.(11:22)
acockburn对umlchina说: Let's see... what is our starting
time on my Friday / your Saturday? I'll be there 10 minutes early(11:23)
umlchina对acockburn说: 50-100, I think.(11:23)
acockburn对umlchina说: Very good. We've spent 45 minutes
this time. Good calibration point.(11:24)
se_cn对acockburn说: Do you consider the UML as a good
tool for web modeling?(11:25)
evpu对acockburn说: btw:where will u usually go for
discuss about some theories of software development?(11:26)
umlchina对acockburn说: 10 minutes early is good,anyway,
We will wait for you(11:26)
evpu对acockburn说: that is mean to say,where is a good
place to do it on line?(11:28)
se_cn对acockburn说: Sorry,I have to leave, see you
late(11:28)
umlchina对acockburn说: see you on Saturday(Your friday),
professor, and good night.(11:28)
se_cn对acockburn说: see u(11:28)
umlchina对大家说:
麻烦各位事先用英文准备一些问题，以免气氛冷落，OK？拜托了。(11:51)
notyy对大家说: 好的。呵呵。(11:51)
yangyihui进入聊天室.(11:52)
umlchina对notyy说:
你来晚了。麻烦事先用英文准备一些问题，以免周六气氛冷落，OK？拜托了。((11:52)
notyy对umlchina说:
星期六早上是吧？我会准备的。(11:52)
notyy对umlchina说: 先走了。(11:53)
umlchina对acockburn说: hi, professor, so early! I have
not had my breakfast yet!(09:09)
qingzuozhou进入聊天室.(09:10)
acockburn对大家说: We said 19:00, and it is 19:00 here
in Salt Lake City - is it really only 9:00 there?(09:12)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: Glad to see you, Mr.
Acockburn(09:12)
acockburn对大家说: If you want, I have a lot of work
to do - I can go and do work for another hour and come back then(09:13)
xkfy对大家说: hi,professor,it's glad to meet
you(09:13)
umlchina对acockburn说: Yes, please be busy with your
work first and come back 30 mins later?(09:14)
acockburn对umlchina说: Ok. I have only 2 hours I can be
here. So I shall come back in 30 minutes and be here for 2 hours then. Is that
OK?(09:15)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: It's 9 o'clock morning now in
China(09:15)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: We will wait you until
10:00(09:15)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Ah, then we did our math wrong
- we though 1900 here would be 1000 there.(09:15)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: OK. I shall be back at 10:00
your time. bye...(09:16)
xkfy对acockburn说: wait for you(09:17)
qingzuozhou对umlchina说: you are the president here, you
should prepare some questions to ask Mr. Acockburn(09:18)
qingzuozhou对umlchina说: then we can read the talk words
while we are talking with Mr. Acockburn(09:19)
xkfy对umlchina说: we need inform more people,i'll post
something on our BBS(09:19)
fuzhong进入聊天室.(09:20)
fuzhong对大家说: Can you speak chinese?(09:21)
qingzuozhou对umlchina说: yes, xkfy is right . you should
post the ad. on some popular website(09:21)
fuzhong对大家说: Mr Alistair Cockburn is here?(09:24)
qingzuozhou对umlchina说: I think you also should be a
intepreter with some guys from China who speak Chinese and their English are not
very good(09:24)
wangyuanjian进入聊天室.(09:27)
smilingleo进入聊天室.(09:27)
xkfy对umlchina说: i'd glad to be the intepreter,if
umlchina agree(09:28)
qingzuozhou对xkfy说: good(09:29)
adamwu进入聊天室.(09:29)
umlchina对xkfy说: thank you! It is great!(09:29)
smilingleo对大家说: //boring(09:29)
xkfy对大家说: 刚才人少，cockburn先生离去一段时间，大家尽快准备好足够的问题(09:30)
fuzhong进入聊天室.(09:33)
fuzhong对大家说: I'm sorry,I installed the KingSoft
just.(09:35)
fuzhong对大家说: How useful the UML and Rose
are?(09:36)
bucolic进入聊天室.(09:37)
bucolic对大家说: now does the talk begin?(09:38)
fuzhong对大家说: I think so.(09:39)
yingji进入聊天室.(09:40)
bn007进入聊天室.(09:41)
wangyuanjian微笑着对大家说: where could i find the
examples about the report&statistics design?(09:41)
wangyuanjian微笑着对大家说: i mean in Rose(09:41)
smilingleo对大家说: Hello, everyone(09:41)
bucolic对大家说: you means designing a product such as
crystal report?(09:41)
busy_girl进入聊天室.(09:42)
wangyuanjian微笑着对大家说: yes,but with another
tool(09:42)
fuzhong对大家说: 英语不到位交流有些困难!(09:43)
bucolic对大家说: which tool? rose?(09:43)
wangyuanjian微笑着对大家说: crystal report is too
difficult for common users.a report&statistics tool,not rose(09:43)
busy_girl对大家说: 大家好(09:44)
zju_andrew进入聊天室.(09:45)
fuzhong对smilingleo说: You can say you own idea if we
have no problems now.(09:45)
rjcludy进入聊天室.(09:45)
wangyuanjian微笑着对大家说: i finish the
requirement analyse,but difficult to finish the architecture design with
rose(09:46)
busy_girl对大家说: who can speak with me?(09:46)
dyne进入聊天室.(09:46)
rjcludy对大家说: hello(09:46)
wangyuanjian微笑着对大家说: and the detail
design(09:46)
dyne对大家说: hi(09:46)
飞虹之陈以东进入聊天室.(09:46)
dyne对大家说: who is the expert?(09:46)
wangyuanjian对bucolic说: ????(09:47)
busy_girl对rjcludy说: can i speak for U?(09:48)
zju_andrew对大家说: It's too early to come here(09:48)
bucolic对wangyuanjian说: ok, we also are designing a
report system based on java with rose.(09:48)
dyne对大家说: anyone give a basic idea what UML
is?(09:48)
dyne对大家说: I just begin to know UML(09:48)
rjcludy对busy_girl说: ok(09:48)
飞虹之陈以东对大家说: where are the
export(09:48)
dyne对大家说: I am brand new(09:49)
wangyuanjian对bucolic说: it's possible to share the
value?(09:49)
fuzhong对umlchina说: You should take charge this
discuss.(09:49)
busy_girl对rjcludy说: what are u doing with uml?(09:49)
kooer进入聊天室.(09:50)
rjcludy对busy_girl说: learn and try to do it in
working(09:50)
ee96pyg进入聊天室.(09:50)
liduanzhi进入聊天室.(09:50)
busy_girl微笑着对rjcludy说:
你是进行系统分析嘛？(09:51)
smilingleo对大家说: When will the discuss
start?(09:51)
liduanzhi很高兴地对大家说:
大家好，恭喜发财！(09:51)
wangyuanjian对bucolic说: what can help u?it's
Rose?(09:51)
rjcludy对busy_girl说: you ?(09:52)
fuzhong对umlchina说: Where is the chairman?(09:52)
qingzuozhou对busy_girl说: as a girl, are you a system
anlyst?(09:52)
busy_girl微笑着对rjcludy说:
我用它是为了课题研究(09:53)
busy_girl微笑着对rjcludy说: 我觉得有点困惑(09:53)
busy_girl微笑着对rjcludy说:
因为我发现整个过程好象没有明显的界限(09:53)
rjcludy对busy_girl说: wa 你是学院派的(09:53)
bucolic对wangyuanjian说: sorry , help to you , I mean
sharing my value.(09:54)
qingzuozhou对busy_girl说: are you are student for master
or doctor?(09:54)
triol进入聊天室.(09:54)
busy_girl对qingzuozhou说: master(09:55)
wangyuanjian微笑着对bucolic说: we just share UML and
Rose here.u needn't feel sorry about it.(09:55)
triol对大家说: //tu(09:56)
busy_girl对qingzuozhou说: u?(09:56)
macson进入聊天室.(09:56)
chenf进入聊天室.(09:57)
macson对大家说: hello(09:57)
smilingleo对大家说: //lag(09:58)
qingzuozhou对busy_girl说: a system analyst.how long have
you been studied for UML?(09:58)
wangyuanjian微笑着对bucolic说: of course:wangyuanjian@fm365.com(09:58)
hdw1978进入聊天室.(09:59)
nix00000进入聊天室.(09:59)
busy_girl对qingzuozhou说: half year.(09:59)
liduanzhi离开了聊天室.(09:59)
nix00000对大家说: 一会专家来吗？(09:59)
qingzuozhou对busy_girl说: I feel that you are not very
farmiliar with UML(10:00)
hdw1978对大家说: hi all!(10:00)
cowherd进入聊天室.(10:00)
busy_girl对qingzuozhou说: why?(10:00)
macson对大家说: when will Alistair Cockburn
come?(10:00)
nix00000微笑着对大家说: 今天是不是有一个OO专家来？？？？？？？？(10:00)
qingzuozhou对busy_girl说: only studied it from book and
no enperiences with UML in projects(10:00)
chenf对大家说: 谁迟到了(10:00)
kt133进入聊天室.(10:01)
chenf对大家说: 专家还来吗？(10:01)
nix00000微笑着对大家说: 专家来了吧？(10:02)
busy_girl对qingzuozhou说: but i modeling a system with
it(10:02)
mengxc进入聊天室.(10:02)
umlchina对大家说: 谢谢大家光临，cockburn先生一会就到，刚才他搞错时间来早了，先离开一会(10:02)
nix00000微笑着对大家说: 一起学OO与UML吧。欢迎来Q
69559361(10:02)
acockburn对umlchina说: Hello again(10:02)
kerish进入聊天室.(10:02)
wangyuanjian微笑着对bucolic说: thanks.i have already
sent out an email.(10:03)
qingzuozhou对busy_girl说: Hi, it's 10:00 in China. Mr.
Acockburn here?(10:03)
macson对大家说: how to model a system with rotional?(10:03)
umlchina对大家说: 聊天颜色约定：(10:03)
nix00000微笑着对大家说: hello, acockburn(10:03)
qingzuozhou对大家说: Hi, it's 10:00 in China. Mr.
Acockburn here??(10:03)
hdw1978对大家说: Hmm, what's the topic today?(10:04)
acockburn对umlchina说: Yes, He's here, good morning
everyone(10:04)
altob进入聊天室.(10:04)
boss_ch进入聊天室.(10:04)
fuzhong对大家说: Good moring.(10:04)
nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: Can you tell us how to
build use cases in a project?(10:04)
nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: How to build it
effectively(10:04)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: hi, it's liveliness at this
room now!(10:04)
nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: thanks(10:04)
busy_girl很高兴地对大家说:
欢迎！啪啪啪啪啪啪啪……(10:05)
triol对acockburn说: welcome!(10:05)
umlchina对大家说: 提问及参与讨论：草原之蓝,嘉宾回答和主持人发言：正宗喜红,互相说话：绝对黑色(10:05)
acockburn对nix00000说: You mean you would like me to
rewrite my book online during this chat session?(10:05)
umlchina对大家说: please talk in english!(10:05)
wangyuanjian微笑着对bucolic说: maybe on the
way.(10:05)
macson对大家说: very slowly(10:06)
acockburn对nix00000说: How about we start with some
simple questions, and find where the questions should go to..(10:06)
nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: :-), No, In my practice,
I am often confused by the use case.(10:06)
nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: I don't know how to
devide the whole function of business into effective use case.(10:06)
altob对大家说: hello(10:06)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: Can you tell us the
differences between using UML for projects and products?(10:06)
fuzhong对大家说: Mr. acockburn ,how can I abstract the
use cases and the actors .(10:06)
umlchina对acockburn说: I have a question: We make many
mistake when using use cases, what is the most common mistake which we
development teams make?(10:07)
acockburn对nix00000说: Topic:Use Cases: A use case is a
text story describing what a system should do for a person(10:07)
nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: Ok, Can you tell us how
long do you in this field.(10:07)
fuzhong对大家说: Mr. acockburn ,how can I abstract the
use cases and the actors .((10:07)
acockburn对umlchina说: The most common mistake is to
make them too detailed(10:07)
acockburn对umlchina说: People put the UI design into the
use case (I'll write UC for use case)(10:08)
altob离开了聊天室.(10:08)
acockburn对umlchina说: ...and that is wrong. There isa
UI designer who should read the UC and then design the UI fromthat.(10:08)
jinie进入聊天室.(10:08)
acockburn对umlchina说: If you put the UI design into the
UC, then the use case is not REQUIREMENTS, it is a description of the
screen.(10:08)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: how does the use cases be
optimized?(10:09)
acockburn对umlchina说: Related, people write very very
detailed use case, adn they are very boring to read.(10:09)
xiang2ky进入聊天室.(10:09)
acockburn对umlchina说: A use case is sort of a story. I
have never written one with more than 9 steps in it.(10:09)
no24进入聊天室.(10:09)
hdw1978对大家说: but sometimes, user asked for
'beautiful UI'(10:09)
boss_ch对大家说: any tools for UI design ?(10:09)
acockburn对umlchina说: If you have more than 9 steps,
then either the user iterface design is showing up or the steps are too
detailed.(10:09)
flurrybb进入聊天室.(10:09)
acockburn对umlchina说: I find that almost every company
I visit has long, detailed, boring use caess.(10:10)
xkfy进入聊天室.(10:10)
xkfy对大家说: something is wrong?(10:10)
unlchina进入聊天室.(10:10)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Right. "Beautiful UI" -
Ask yourself - whose job is that?(10:10)
liduanzhi进入聊天室.(10:10)
acockburn对hdw1978说: I s that the job of the person
writing the *behavioral requirements* for the system, ...(10:11)
no24离开了聊天室.(10:11)
hdw1978对acockburn说: So, you mean the UC is someway the
function module?(10:11)
acockburn对hdw1978说: ...or is that the job of a person
who read a short description of what the system must "do", and who
then designs a beautiful UI design.(10:11)
xiang2ky进入聊天室.(10:11)
acockburn对hdw1978说: ...the point is, that UI design is
"design". use cases are for "requirements"(10:11)
nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: How to devide the big
use case, what is the idea?(10:11)
acockburn对hdw1978说: ...don't put design into the
requirements. keep the requirements for only what "must" be
there.(10:12)
acockburn对hdw1978说: A use case is like a function
module, but *as seen from the user's side*(10:12)
fuzhong对大家说: Yes.(10:12)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Ask: What is the user really
trying to *accomplish*?(10:12)
ee96pyg进入聊天室.(10:12)
hdw1978对acockburn说: don't you think the UI design must
comply the require?(10:13)
bucolic对acockburn说: how many uses in a system is
appropriate?(10:13)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Write one use case to show a user
using the system to accomplish something relevant and important to them.(10:13)
飞虹之陈以东离开了聊天室.(10:13)
smilingleo对acockburn说: when the UC was done , what
step will be the next?(10:13)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Therefore, the name of the use
case must be a VERB phrase, saying what someone wants to accomplish.(10:13)
hdw1978对acockburn说: use the UC to construct a
'black-box' ?(10:13)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Yes, let's stay on this topic for
a bit, it is a good one. the UI design must comply withthe re(10:14)
acockburn对hdw1978说: The distinction I wish to pass
along is the distinction between Requirements and Design.(10:14)
nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: Mr. burn, I think if you
can give a sample, that we can understand well.(10:14)
fuzhong对acockburn说: I know some knowledge,and can
you(10:15)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Requirements means the system MUST
have it.(10:15)
ee96pyg进入聊天室.(10:15)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Design means the designers CHOOSE
it.(10:15)
fuzhong对acockburn说: ensample ?(10:15)
acockburn对hdw1978说: It is a matter of who gets to make
the decision.(10:15)
nix00000对acockburn说: How about the mine game in
Windows?(10:15)
bucolic对acockburn说: sometime the user don't know the
requirement clearly, when show them the UI, he will give some good
suggestions.how to resolved it.(10:15)
fuzhong对acockburn说: I know some knowledge,and can you
ensample ?(10:15)
acockburn对hdw1978说: (Yes, make the system a black box,
and never refer to what its internal structure is)(10:15)
chunfly进入聊天室.(10:15)
nix00000对acockburn说: If you have such a project to
write, how do write the use case?(10:15)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Good questions, all.(10:16)
ruisnow进入聊天室.(10:16)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Let's back up... the way to find
the answers to your questions is to ask this:(10:16)
kt133对大家说: But what the sequence diagram and
collabration diagram should do?Mr acock?(10:16)
acockburn对hdw1978说: ...WHO gets to make the
decision?(10:16)
umlchina对acockburn说: "Design means the designers
CHOOSE it","Requirements means the system MUST have it",So
great!!(10:16)
oldwai进入聊天室.(10:16)
acockburn对hdw1978说: (Leave out UML, Rose, and all
diagrams for a minute... if you don't know what you are trying to express, they
can't help you)(10:16)
hdw1978对acockburn说: requirement is the job of
analysis, so analysis can't mixed with design?(10:17)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 1: you ask some users and
some sponsors (the people with the money) what they would like the system to
do.(10:17)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 2. They tell you. Those are
now Requirements.(10:17)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 3. But they don't really know
the meaning of what they asked for.(10:17)
bucolic对acockburn说: sponsors is stalkhold?(10:18)
acockburn对hdw1978说: ...so you build some prototypes,
or draw pictures on papers, and help them understand what their choices are
allowed to be.(10:18)
ee96pyg对大家说: How can I get a full version of
<writing effective use case>? Not draft in UMLChina.com!(10:18)
acockburn对hdw1978说: (Yes sponsor is
stakeholder)(10:18)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 2-3 repeat, you and the
user/sponsor go back and forth deciding what the system should do.(10:19)
bucolic对acockburn说: if I build some prototypes, it
means I will begin a UI design?(10:19)
futurehope进入聊天室.(10:19)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 4. OK, for some portion of
the requirements, you and they finally are in agreement as to what the system
should do.(10:19)
nix00000对acockburn说: Your text is like the book said,
BUT, can you give us a detail sample? Mr, burn.(10:19)
acockburn对hdw1978说: ...Now two types of designers get
started working. The UI designer and the program designer.(10:20)
hacker_jiang进入聊天室.(10:20)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 4A. The UI designer works out
an easy-to-learn, fast-to-use UI design that the users can accept and
use.(10:20)
bucolic对acockburn说: then should I keep the UI
confirmed by customer?or just the requirement?(10:20)
54elite进入聊天室.(10:20)
fuzhong对acockburn说: I want to do in some projects with
you,so I think I will learn muck.(10:20)
沸绿生进入聊天室.(10:21)
hdw1978对acockburn说: but, during prototype building,
some design(may be small) have been made!(10:21)
busy_girl很高兴地对acockburn说: What is the arm of
modeling?is requirement or code?(10:21)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 4B. The program designer
starts working on the internal structure of the program.(10:21)
acockburn对hdw1978说: (If my text now is just like the
book, then you will know that there are many examples in the book, and I can ask
you to read those)(10:21)
smilingleo对acockburn说: You mean the programmer can
start working at once, when the prototype was completed just now?(10:21)
nix00000对ee96pyg说: 什么意思？(10:22)
acockburn对bucolic说: Yes, doing prototypes IS doing UI
design. and there is nothing wrong with doing it with the users(10:22)
acockburn对bucolic说: ...or showing them to the users
and learning what they like and don't like.(10:22)
acockburn对bucolic说: ...They also get to finally accept
or reject that design, since they are going to use it.(10:23)
unlchina进入聊天室.(10:23)
acockburn对bucolic说: ...Some friends of mine say that
"acceptance tests" are the final requirements!(10:23)
smilingleo对acockburn说: If so , what time to do with
detail design?(10:23)
rjcludy进入聊天室.(10:23)
acockburn对bucolic说: Back to use cases, for a moment...
they record the UI-independent description of what the system must do, so the UI
design(10:24)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: what's the standards for
fihishing a UC? ?(10:24)
bucolic对acockburn说: if I get the correct requirement
with ptototypes, how I deal with the prototypes?(10:24)
acockburn对bucolic说: ...can change, even while the
descirption of what the system must do stays constant.(10:24)
bucolic对acockburn说: abandon it? or reuse it in the
next design?(10:24)
acockburn对bucolic说: Think of UCs as a good recording
device. You write in there what the system must do when things go wrong (after
you and the users decided the answer!)(10:25)
pigcanfly进入聊天室.(10:25)
jinie离开了聊天室.(10:25)
acockburn对bucolic说: I like to do everything
concurrently.(10:25)
se_cn进入聊天室.(10:25)
acockburn对bucolic说: First, enough requirements to
understand what the users are aiming at.(10:26)
acockburn对bucolic说: Then some paper prototyping, or
programming prototyping, so give them and me some feedback ...(10:26)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: how can you evaluate a good UC
or bad UC?(10:26)
se_cn对acockburn说: hello(10:26)
acockburn对bucolic说: ... as to what they just asked
for, so see if that's what they want.(10:26)
bucolic对acockburn说: acceptance tests, it means I have
implemented the requirements? then customer make a acceptance test(10:26)
acockburn对bucolic说: At that point, we have done some
requirements, some UI design, some program design.(10:26)
futurehope进入聊天室.(10:27)
acockburn对bucolic说: Once the users are happy, both the
UI designer and the programmer have a lot of work to do...(10:27)
dystudy进入聊天室.(10:27)
acockburn对bucolic说: ... so the user can move onto
specifying another part of the system with another pair of people.(10:27)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: I see. But I know many UCs is
not useful for Design. how can we avoid that?(10:28)
acockburn对bucolic说: Detailed design happens once the
program designer gets serious about making the design work.(10:28)
rodbare进入聊天室.(10:28)
acockburn对bucolic说: You can either throw the
prototypes away - if they were no good, or keep them, if they are good.(10:28)
am2000进入聊天室.(10:28)
acockburn对bucolic说: A use case is finished in one of
two ways, depending on a small project.(10:28)
acockburn对bucolic说: For a small, local project, it is
finished - no matter how messy it is - when everyone understands what it is
trying to express.(10:29)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: about the detail level for a
UC, can you give me a suggestion?(10:29)
fuzhong对acockburn说: When you think about the OO,you do
not think about the programing language?Sorry,i'm pool in English.(10:29)
acockburn对bucolic说: On a large, complicated project
(military, some financial instutions), it is finished when(10:29)
kt133对acockburn说: what the sequence diagram should do
properly?And not too detail?(10:29)
acockburn对bucolic说: A) the list of use case names list
all the goals the users have(10:29)
bucolic对acockburn说: if separate the UI designer and
system designer ,how do they work it smoothly?(10:29)
acockburn对bucolic说: B) each use case captures all the
error conditions that can arise during its operation.(10:30)
fuzhong对acockburn说: If someone is not skill in program
language,can he design with OO?(10:30)
bucolic对acockburn说: the list inculde the stakeholder's
requests?(10:30)
acockburn对bucolic说: You need as many use cases as
there are desires the users have for the system. Exactly that many.(10:30)
acockburn对bucolic说: How many is that? Well, different
for different systems. 20 or 70 is OK. I worked on one with 200.(10:31)
dyfjt进入聊天室.(10:31)
acockburn对bucolic说: I know people who have worked on
some systems with 1,000 (yikes!)(10:31)
ee96pyg对大家说: Can you tell me some keywords about
the evolution of method to capture system?(10:31)
john_zhu进入聊天室.(10:31)
bucolic对acockburn说: yeah ,in fact , the error
condition can be list completly.(10:31)
ee96pyg对acockburn说: : Can you tell me some keywords
about the evolution of method to capture system(10:32)
edali进入聊天室.(10:32)
bucolic对acockburn说: sorry can't list(10:32)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Let's leave use cases for a little
while. You have the book online there.(10:32)
rjcludy对acockburn说: Can you tell me how to juge the
user case's granularity is good? thank you.(10:32)
edali进入聊天室.(10:32)
nix00000对acockburn说: You mean that We should finish a
use case and then begin another?(10:32)
busy_girl离开了聊天室.(10:32)
acockburn对fuzhong说: TOPIC, OO DESIGN: It is actually
hard to design without knowing the OO language.(10:32)
nix00000对acockburn说: You mean that We should finish a
use case and then begin another?((10:33)
acockburn对fuzhong说: I program in Smalltalk, and some
amount in C++, and not much in Java, and not at all in CLOS.(10:33)
potatochen进入聊天室.(10:33)
unlchina对大家说: finish the meeting, everyone(10:33)
fuzhong对acockburn说: Why?(10:33)
umlchina对大家说: unlchina is not umlchina,
please(10:33)
bucolic对acockburn说: yeah, the use cases's amount is
relative with the code of line?(10:33)
acockburn对fuzhong说: My can design a good Smalltalk
design, a medium C++ design, a mediocre Java design and a crummy CLOS
design.(10:33)
acockburn对fuzhong说: It is like building a building
with different materials.(10:34)
acockburn对fuzhong说: If you know how to work with
bricks or with concrete and steel.(10:34)
nix00000对acockburn说: Please answer my question.(10:34)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: if I develop a software
product, the requirment is from myself or my knowledge. at this situation, how
about the UC?(10:34)
acockburn对fuzhong说: The shapes of buildings you design
with the different materials is very different.(10:34)
hacker_jiang对大家说: why does nobody speak?(10:35)
liudf进入聊天室.(10:35)
edali离开了聊天室.(10:35)
am2000对大家说: ??(10:35)
xkfy对acockburn说: can you comment at the project
management in the ERP(10:35)
hdw1978对acockburn说: so one must master many language
to deal with all kinds of projects?(10:35)
fuzhong对acockburn说: The shapes of buildings you design
with the different materials is very different??(10:35)
fuzhong对acockburn说: What is the materials ?(10:36)
acockburn对nix00000说: NIX - we spent a lot of time on
use cases.... now let's talk about design for a bit.(10:36)
bucolic对acockburn说: and the size of building? I means
if smalltalk can make a huge system, but other language can't?(10:36)
kt133对acockburn说: but how to use uml to design the
project using jsp,php...these b/s ?(10:36)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Buildings... please look around
your city. Some buildings are brick, some wood, some concrete, steel and
glass.(10:37)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Their shapes are quite
different.(10:37)
fuzhong对acockburn说: I see.(10:37)
nix00000对acockburn说: Ok, go on, I am just
watching.(10:37)
bucolic对acockburn说: or if can builder , but it's not
as robust as smalltalk?(10:37)
jambol进入聊天室.(10:37)
dyfjt微笑着对acockburn说: I am a beginner of UML.I do
not know how and when to do from analysis to design.what should i do?Can you
help me?i see my question is very fool,but i need..(10:37)
acockburn对fuzhong说: In fact the very possibility of
what shape building you can build depends very much on what material you choose
to use.(10:37)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Similarly, scuptors use different
materials: clay, stone, others.(10:38)
hdw1978对acockburn说: I think java is the material that
can build everything(10:38)
zwweric进入聊天室.(10:38)
acockburn对fuzhong说: When someone decides to work from
a block of marble, they must be very careful to arrange the weight and thickness
carefully,(10:38)
ee96pyg对acockburn说: I want to know which fields the
ideas of use case have come from.(10:38)
acockburn对fuzhong说: so that the piece holds
together.(10:38)
bucolic对acockburn说: if I use a robust meterial, the
building will be robust. and programing?(10:38)
fuzhong对acockburn说: design can ignore language?(10:39)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: when the initial design is
finished, progrmmers begin to code for it. but programmers find many unfitting
in design. how can I do for that?(10:39)
acockburn对fuzhong说: When someone builds a metal
armature or mesh, and then adds clay to it, they can make many changes very
fast, and create completely different shapes with it.(10:39)
bucolic对acockburn说: I means diffenent program
language(10:39)
acockburn对fuzhong说: OK, back to software.(10:39)
acockburn对fuzhong说: C++ is a brittle material, like
stone.(10:39)
运气进入聊天室.(10:39)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: changed my design or ask
programmers change his mind?(10:39)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Your class hierarchy has to be
carefully desgned. You cannot change it easily.(10:40)
运气离开了聊天室.(10:40)
acockburn对fuzhong说: There are particular inheritance
rules.(10:40)
acockburn对fuzhong说: The result is a particular sort of
design, very common across C++ programs.(10:40)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Smalltalk, on the other hand, is
like clay - very easy to change.(10:40)
bucolic对acockburn说: which language do you perfer?
smalltalk?(10:40)
acockburn对fuzhong说: People who write in Smalltalk
changes their designs all the time.(10:40)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Also, there are few rules about
the inheritance hierarchy, so the structure is different.(10:41)
xjg95进入聊天室.(10:41)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Java is a combination of Smalltalk
and C++, so the design shape is somewhere in between(10:41)
acockburn对fuzhong说: CLOS has even looser rules that
Smalltalk. and so on.(10:41)
freespark进入聊天室.(10:42)
acockburn对fuzhong说: This is the long answer to your
questions, about "Can someone who doesn't know the language do an OO
design?"(10:42)
sundz进入聊天室.(10:42)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: different language need
different design? for example C++ and Java?(10:42)
xiang2ky微笑着对acockburn说: so what about c#?(10:42)
rjcludy对acockburn说: Can u tell me how to juge the user
case's granularity is best? thank you very much.(10:42)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Good question. All designs
have mistakes in them.(10:42)
rick1126进入聊天室.(10:43)
zaney进入聊天室.(10:43)
umlchina对acockburn说: In a visual modeling tool, such
as Rational Rose, we can not put the system boundary box on the use-case
diagram. system boundary is totally missing from the diagram. Is(10:43)
umlchina对acockburn说: it a right choice?(10:43)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: tell us something about
that(10:43)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: If you set up your project
team so that a master "designer" makes all the decisions, and a
programmer "only" programs them, then...(10:43)
fuzhong对acockburn说: Thanks.(10:43)
rick1126对大家说: hi, first come here(10:43)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: ...the programmer will
discover the designer's mistake, but not be able to fix them.(10:43)
品雪进入聊天室.(10:43)
busy_girl进入聊天室.(10:44)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: For that reason, I prefer to
have each person responsible for their own design AND programmintg.(10:44)
*kt133对acockburn说: and how to design with jsp and php?
it seems hard to use uml.(10:44)
*kt133对acockburn说: and how to design with jsp and php?
it seems hard to use uml.(10:44)
bucolic对acockburn说: it means designer should do some
programing?(10:44)
gemlei进入聊天室.(10:44)
zwweric微笑着对大家说: Could you say something
about testing?About Auto-Testing?I'm sorry.My english is pool!(10:45)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: then one have two or more
role(10:45)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Then, when the programmer
finds the design mistake he(she) simply fixes it.(10:45)
thunderbird进入聊天室.(10:45)
bucolic对acockburn说: but how to assure the design of
different person work smoothly(10:45)
品雪对acockburn说: would you like tell me why you
disagree rational method so much?(10:45)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Yes, it means the designer
should do some programming. I have never worked on a project which had a pure
"designer" who did not program.(10:45)
dystudy对大家说: How to talk to with uers,I feel
trouble when i talk to wiht user(10:45)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: but that is not accord with
the requirement of CMM(10:45)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: I have heard about such
projects, but I have not heard good news about such projects.(10:46)
fuzhong对umlchina说: 请你帮忙.有个问题我翻译不出:就是国外在10年或者20年前或者更长时间,软件行业是种什么状况?(10:46)
xkfy对acockburn说: but we need the master(10:46)
bucolic对acockburn说: in fact in a big system it's
impossible one people to finish it.(10:46)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: There are just too many
strange mistakes to make and it takes the programmer too long to explain them to
the designer.(10:46)
umlchina对acockburn说: In a modeling tool such as
Rational Rose, we can't put the system boundary box on a use-case diagram.
system boundary is missing from the diagram. Is it a right choice?(10:46)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: yes. when diffrenet role for
diffrenent people, it's hard to control for the project.(10:47)
bucolic对acockburn说: maybe design and program with same
person is a method of XP?(10:47)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: What we do with senior
designer/programmers, is give them the hardest part of teh system to design, and
have them check the work of teh junior designer/programmers.(10:47)
fuzhong对umlchina说: 比如软件开发过程?(10:47)
dyfjt微笑着对acockburn说: as a beginner,need i learn
UML with RUP??(10:47)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: but many management ask
that!(10:47)
dystudy对acockburn说: How to talk to with uers,I feel
trouble when i talk to wiht user(10:47)
品雪对umlchina说: I think you just can do that. Try to
customize your toolbar(10:47)
fuzhong对umlchina说: 呵呵,试试.(10:47)
dyfjt微笑着对acockburn说: can you help me ?(10:48)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: And then give the junior
designer/programmers smaller,simpler pieces of the system to design and
program.(10:48)
zwweric微笑着对acockburn说: could you say something
about Rational Robot?(10:48)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: I think you are very
right.(10:48)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Yes, I disagree with the CMM
quite a bit (and with the use of UML, too :-)(10:48)
bucolic对acockburn说: samller ,simpler pieces, piece can
relative with use case , 1 by 1?(10:49)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: So there ought to be quite a
topic there!(10:49)
nix00000对acockburn说: How to cooperate each
other?(10:49)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: I have the thought that
programming is a skill and a craft, like any other... sewing (tailoring),
building, painting, woodworking...(10:50)
93450进入聊天室.(10:50)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: when I join project , I often
be confused by some standards such as CMM/ISO9001(10:50)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: The successful project teams I
visit are built around the skills of the individuals,and their teamwork(10:50)
品雪进入聊天室.(10:50)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: If you don't have good enough
skills on the team, no amount of CMM process or UML modeling will save the
project.(10:50)
bucolic对acockburn说: with psp and tsp to build a good
team?(10:51)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: On the other hand, if the
people do have the skills, then they need only a tiny bit of process and UML
modeling.(10:51)
rodbare离开了聊天室.(10:51)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Both process and modeling are
useful... but best in small quantities.(10:51)
charles_y进入聊天室.(10:51)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Therefore, I don't object to
the UML notation... but I do object when managers think that they can replace
program design with just teh UML model.(10:52)
girlmoon进入聊天室.(10:52)
fuzhong对acockburn说: I have another question.Why The
SA(Structure Analyse ) past and OO now come into being on broad not in
Chinese?(10:52)
缺钙进入聊天室.(10:52)
bucolic对acockburn说: modeling is served with implement
, if you have good implement, no need for moduling?(10:52)
dyfjt离开了聊天室.(10:52)
fuzhong对acockburn说: This is about the Software
Condition.(10:52)
jambol对acockburn说: Is it necessary that software
engineer become domain expert when designs and analyse?(10:53)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: I see, your points help me a
lot(10:53)
ee96pyg对acockburn说: Please introduce some characters
of sucessful teams you feel.(10:53)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: Hi, could you explain that
question about SA and OO a bit more?(10:53)
nix00000对acockburn说: You mean everyone in the team
should have enough skills about modeling?(10:53)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: OK,NEW TOPIC: Characters on
successful team.(10:53)
xiaochai进入聊天室.(10:53)
ee96pyg对acockburn说: oo have memory then have
life(10:54)
ee96pyg对acockburn说: for what?(10:54)
ee96pyg对acockburn说: SA for what?(10:54)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: #1. If you don't have someone who
has succeeded with some project before, it is much harder to succeed with this
project.(10:55)
nix00000对acockburn说: They all have good
skills!!!(10:55)
dystudy离开了聊天室.(10:55)
品雪对acockburn说: ... tehn, would you like introduce
your methodology for us?(10:55)
bucolic对acockburn说: experence is very
important?(10:55)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: A person who has succeeded before
remembers how they got around the problems last time.(10:55)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: So this is a most important person
to have on the team.(10:55)
fuzhong对acockburn说: I think technology has be there
now and then,Why they be found on broad.I says this ,because I want to know How
can I do so that I can stand ahead.(10:56)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: For small projects, this person is
usually the Team Lead, does the most difficult part of the design,(10:56)
hdw1978对大家说: what if there are two person
succeeded but have different experience?(10:56)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: ...watches the quality of work of
the otherpeople, negotiates with the users,(10:56)
bucolic对acockburn说: in fact in china we are short of
those important persons(10:56)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: ... builds the schedules... and
doesn't get much sleep.(10:56)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: If you have two of these people,
then the load is not so terrible. Otherwise this person works 60-90 hours each
week.(10:57)
ee96pyg对acockburn说: thanks, i am listening(10:57)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: If you have such a person, then
you give him(her) a few medium or beginning people to help.(10:57)
rainyangjinhui进入聊天室.(10:57)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: Notice the skills
development.(10:57)
bucolic对acockburn说: sometime if one has to management
the project, he will lost the time to make design, how to resolve?(10:57)
charles_y对acockburn说: How we can still get start when
we get no person who has succeded before ,or if has experience before?(10:57)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: If you have a smart, inexperienced
person, this person will learn fast, and soon(10:58)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: become a medum-experienced person
and be quite helpful.(10:58)
xiaochai离开了聊天室.(10:58)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: I have another question . how
to use OO technology to relace the old system. for example, I have a system
developed before. now I want to upgrade to new platform with OO(10:58)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: If you are unlucky, and no one is
experienced, then the smartest or fastest person will grow the fastest and
become the technical leader.(10:58)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: You will have to develop such a
person.(10:59)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: Question: how to reduce the load
on the Team Lead?... answer, assign as many other things to other people as
possible.(10:59)
hdw1978对大家说: A team without a leader will doomed
to fail?(10:59)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: Find a project manager to watch
schedules, inter-person dependencies, money, furniture.(11:00)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: if rewrite all code , the cost
is too high. if not , how reuse the old results?(11:00)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: Assign pieces of work to people
who are just learning... even if they are 3 times as slow, sometimes the project
will still go better.(11:00)
fuzhong对acockburn说: Some books says that the interest
is very important in software,how the conditions on broad,and how do they work?I
want to talk about Project Manage.(11:00)
bucolic对acockburn说: it means the team leader is the
same person as project manager?(11:01)
acockburn对hdw1978说: If there is no experienced person,
then you really are relying on the inexperienced people to invent their way to
success.(11:01)
acockburn对hdw1978说: This does happen, but not as often
as the opposite... that the people just go around and around, without producing
something.(11:02)
bucolic对acockburn说: can follow the way recorded in the
book?(11:02)
acockburn对hdw1978说: This is the hazard of too much
modeling... you can happily model for 6 months, and never know that the design
won't work.(11:02)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Better to build a small piece
right away, and find if it will or won't work.(11:02)
boss_ch进入聊天室.(11:02)
ee96pyg对acockburn说: Thank you very much(11:02)
acockburn对bucolic说: My book Surviving Object Oriented
Project tells of what I learned by interviewing about 20 project teams,(11:03)
acockburn对bucolic说: and then applying what they said
on a few projects of my own.(11:03)
bucolic对acockburn说: i think you are perfer to have
prototype very much.(11:03)
acockburn对bucolic说: The ideas in that book really work
- they were told to me by successful teams, I tried them myself.(11:04)
Searcher进入聊天室.(11:04)
acockburn对bucolic说: "Prototype" is a word I
stay away from.(11:04)
bucolic对acockburn说: can I purchase this book?(11:04)
acockburn对bucolic说: The point is not to
"prototype", but to get "feedback"(11:04)
charles_y对acockburn说: where to find your book,is it on
stock now?(11:04)
acockburn对bucolic说: The problem with the word "prototype"is
that nobody knows if it should be thrown away or not(11:05)
acockburn对bucolic说: I generally don't like throwaway
prototypes, unless they are made out of paper.(11:05)
acockburn对bucolic说: Because it if is made with a
programming language, the sponsors won't let you throw it away!(11:05)
roshui进入聊天室.(11:05)
rjcludy对acockburn说: Can you tell me how to juge the
user case's granularity is best?? thank you very much!(11:05)
acockburn对bucolic说: So I almost never use the word
prototype.(11:06)
bucolic对acockburn说: oh, then your
"prototype" can change to product.(11:06)
acockburn对bucolic说: Insted, build a very small piece
of the system.(11:06)
gyjoe进入聊天室.(11:06)
acockburn对bucolic说: Build it correctly, full
production strength.(11:06)
charles_y对acockburn说: The most confusing problem is
where to start ?(11:06)
*hdw1978对acockburn说: Could you tell me the favorite
thing you like to do when working on a project?(11:06)
*hdw1978对acockburn说: Could you tell me the favorite
thing you like to do when working on a project?(11:06)
acockburn对bucolic说: Now it is not a prototype. It is
an "increment", a piece of the final system.(11:06)
acockburn对bucolic说: You add onto the increment, so
that you throw away (waste) very little.(11:07)
fuzhong对acockburn说: should you tell me your email?
communion is not ended today.(11:07)
bucolic对acockburn说: oh, our problem is the prototype
is uncorrect, then we have to abandon it.(11:07)
jasa进入聊天室.(11:07)
acockburn对bucolic说: Incremental growth is better than
throwaway prototyping (except when the prototype is made of paper)(11:07)
acockburn对bucolic说: Both provide the really important
thing; feedback.(11:08)
acockburn对charles_y说: CHARLES_Y: nice question.(11:08)
bucolic对acockburn说: when I got the feedback , should I
redesign some use case or just change those implement?(11:08)
acockburn对charles_y说: Where to start?(11:09)
acockburn对charles_y说: The 3 criteria for
starting:(11:09)
acockburn对charles_y说: - it should provide (a tiny
amount of) value to the users.(11:09)
acockburn对charles_y说: - it should be possible to build
in 2 months.(11:09)
acockburn对charles_y说: - it should be quite
easy.(11:10)
acockburn对charles_y说: If you build something, small,
easy, a little bit useful, in 2 months,(11:10)
acockburn对charles_y说: then your users and sponsors
will know you are doing them some good,(11:10)
acockburn对charles_y说: and the team will have practice
actually producing a product.(11:11)
sundz离开了聊天室.(11:11)
doluxx进入聊天室.(11:11)
acockburn对charles_y说: Both of those are extremely
important.(11:11)
bucolic对acockburn说: how do you think of the method of
xp?(11:11)
acockburn对charles_y说: Once you have something small
and useful, you should see if you can find the worst problem facing you,(11:11)
acockburn对charles_y说: and see if you can conquer it.
You get another 2 months.(11:11)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: why in slient?(11:11)
acockburn对charles_y说: The way to find what to build is
to build two lists:(11:12)
acockburn对charles_y说: What the user wants, and what
technologies are going to be used.(11:12)
acockburn对charles_y说: You then choose the easiest
thing that will show some value, and the hardest thing, that will kill your
project.(11:13)
acockburn对charles_y说: Does that help you with your
question?(11:13)
boss_ch进入聊天室.(11:13)
acockburn对bucolic说: XP: You will notice that XP does
all these things I say.(11:13)
charles_y对acockburn说: yes ,thank you ,but how if you
have no easy project?(11:13)
acockburn对bucolic说: So I think XP is very good, except
that you must also produce some documentation,(11:14)
acockburn对bucolic说: ... either along the way or
after.(11:14)
bucolic对acockburn说: yeah, I found it, so I ask this
question.(11:14)
acockburn对bucolic说: But if you produce no
documentation, then the project will be in trouble within 6 months of it being
delivered.(11:14)
bucolic对acockburn说: en, but to develop the big project
, xp can't work.(11:14)
acockburn对charles_y说: Please help me - what do you
mean if you have no easy project?(11:15)
fuzhong对acockburn说: documentation means
communication?(11:15)
charles_y对acockburn说: can you tell me where to buy the
book you mentioned?(11:15)
acockburn对bucolic说: Bucolic: please tell me what you
mean by "big" project, and why XP can't work for it?(11:15)
charles_y对acockburn说: thanks ,i understand what you
mean now(11:15)
bucolic对acockburn说: a big program , we perfer to use
rup.(11:16)
品雪对acockburn说: argee 2 month and easy(11:16)
lw1901进入聊天室.(11:16)
charles_y对acockburn说: i think you mean i should find a
easy part,and work on it(11:16)
acockburn对charles_y说: I don't live in Beijing, so I
can't say where to buty the book. Ask UMLCHINA, who is translatingthe book into
Chinese(11:16)
fuzhong对acockburn说: or documentation means
communication and design both?(11:16)
acockburn对charles_y说: Yesthat it what I mean ('i think
you mean i should find a easy part,and work on it")(11:17)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: I have a software based on
mainfram and plant to replant to J2ee. would you give me some
suggestiuons?(11:17)
bucolic对acockburn说: if a project team has more than
10, it's not effective with xp, it's my thought.(11:17)
品雪离开了聊天室.(11:17)
bucolic对acockburn说: more than 10 members(11:18)
acockburn对fuzhong说: In this case, documentation means
something you can store, and retrieve 6 months later. Can be on paper or
online.(11:18)
y2kBooker进入聊天室.(11:18)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: it is a very large system.
where do I start from?(11:18)
acockburn对bucolic说: Right. XP only works with up to 12
developers sitting at 6 workstations in 1 room.(11:18)
93450离开了聊天室.(11:18)
acockburn对bucolic说: But you have to take into account,
those 12 programmers will probably produce the same amount of system as 35
programmers(11:19)
bucolic对acockburn说: is it enoutg to document only with
uml?(11:19)
acockburn对bucolic说: ...who are not sitting in the same
room and are trying to use RUP and UML.(11:19)
acockburn对bucolic说: So "big" is a bit of a
difficult word with XP.(11:19)
acockburn对bucolic说: The project I visited, 10
programmers did in one year what 26 had failed to do the previous year.(11:20)
bucolic对acockburn说: enough. sorry type mistaken(11:20)
acockburn对bucolic说: So be careful, there are
"big" problems and there are "big" teams.(11:20)
xqing157进入聊天室.(11:20)
hacker_jiang对acockburn说: How to manage a system’s
documentation?(11:20)
acockburn对bucolic说: "big" teams often are so
inefficient that a small team working efficiently can do the same work.(11:20)
acockburn对bucolic说: However, your point is still
true... at some point there will be a system that 12 XP people in a room cannot
build.(11:21)
acockburn对bucolic说: At that point, one must split the
team, use some XP practices, replace other ones...(11:21)
bucolic对acockburn说: you are right, but maybe the
schedual or the size of project, we have to use more people.(11:21)
boss_ch进入聊天室.(11:21)
acockburn对bucolic说: .. perhaps teh resul is XP,
perhaps not. I think it will not be.(11:21)
acockburn对bucolic说: ... but many of the XP practices
can still be useful along the way.(11:22)
bucolic对acockburn说: you are right.(11:22)
acockburn对bucolic说: I have never seen it sufficient to
document only with UML(11:22)
acockburn对bucolic说: There are things people want to
"say" to each other, that they want to say in ordinary
language.(11:23)
bucolic对acockburn说: if we follow the rule of rup, its
documents are enough?(11:23)
acockburn对bucolic说: ... such as "I'm really want
to make this look a lot like a pizza delivery system, so that's why my design
looks the way it does."(11:23)
bucolic对acockburn说: you mean sometime we shouldn't
follow a template to make a document?(11:24)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: I don't know enough about J2EE
to be useful, sorry.(11:24)
gb_hover进入聊天室.(11:24)
bucolic对acockburn说: just record what I should
record.(11:24)
acockburn对bucolic说: OK NEW TOPIC: DOCUMENTATION(11:24)
umlchina对acockburn说: What is your opionion about some
use cases like "Create ***", "read ***", "update
***", "Delete ***"(11:25)
acockburn对bucolic说: This is a difficult topic, and I
find it tiring, but I'll do what I can(11:25)
acockburn对bucolic说: RUP probably permits all and every
kind of documentation known to Man (does it include videotapes? probably)(11:25)
bucolic对acockburn说: you know in rup, it difine some
document template.(11:25)
gigix进入聊天室.(11:25)
aspring进入聊天室.(11:26)
fuzhong对acockburn说: DOCUMENTATION is the kernel,all in
software?(11:26)
bucolic对acockburn说: sometimes I want to follow it to
make document.(11:26)
acockburn对umlchina说: (A little more on use cases:
Create/Retrieve/Update/Delete use cases CRUD use cases)(11:26)
bucolic对acockburn说: but I find some of them are not
useful.(11:26)
gigix对大家说: Hello to everybody.(11:26)
acockburn对umlchina说: (I try to write all four in one
use case, to reduce the number of use cases we have to track.(11:26)
acockburn对umlchina说: (one of my friends really
dislikes that I do that. She likes to have them all separate,(11:27)
gigix对大家说: How do you do? Mr. Cockburn.(11:27)
dengzh进入聊天室.(11:27)
acockburn对umlchina说: (so that she can track the
development, and security issues for each separately(11:27)
panhwa进入聊天室.(11:27)
acockburn对umlchina说: (each of us thinks the other
person is doing it wrong :-)(11:28)
dengzh对大家说: Hello Everyone(11:28)
acockburn对umlchina说: (but that's OK, because we both
know how to make projects successful in the end!)(11:28)
bucolic对acockburn说: another problem ,how to track the
use case.(11:28)
acockburn对umlchina说: back to documentation.(11:28)
acockburn对umlchina说: RUP defines many templates. that
is good.(11:28)
acockburn对umlchina说: But if you try to use them all,
that is bad.(11:28)
acockburn对umlchina说: They give you a
"library" of templates.(11:29)
joekazz进入聊天室.(11:29)
acockburn对umlchina说: When you go the the library, you
don't try to read all the books,(11:29)
bucolic对acockburn说: it means I should trim the
document templates(11:29)
acockburn对umlchina说: When you go to the store to buy
some legal forms, you don't buy all of them.(11:29)
acockburn对umlchina说: You read what you need to read,
you buy what you need to buy.(11:29)
acockburn对umlchina说: The same with document
templates.(11:30)
joekazz离开了聊天室.(11:30)
acockburn对umlchina说: You use the ones you need. You
leave the others in teh RUP library.(11:30)
acockburn对umlchina说: Of course, you realize, we just
came back to skill again.(11:30)
bucolic对acockburn说: i am afraid I think it needn't
read or buy, but in fact it should read or buy(11:30)
acockburn对umlchina说: It takes some judgement and some
practice to decide which ones you need.(11:30)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: as I know , there many
documents no body see them again when the project finished. which should be
ducomentized?(11:30)
acockburn对umlchina说: If you take too many, you slow
down the project, without particularly doing it any good.(11:31)
acockburn对umlchina说: I prefer to take fewer, and let
people decide they need more.(11:31)
acockburn对umlchina说: Most useful documentation seem to
be the following:(11:31)
bucolic对acockburn说: if really need , then add?(11:31)
acockburn对umlchina说: UI - the flow and connection
between screens (use a sort of state machine or statechart to show this)(11:32)
flyfuture进入聊天室.(11:32)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: many documents are produced by
the software enginnering.(11:32)
umlchina对acockburn说: professor, your answer is not for
me--just click the right person(11:32)
acockburn对umlchina说: Architecture: use components and
their interactions. Add a sentence of text to each major component to show its
purpose in life(11:32)
bucolic对acockburn说: you know now the project with web
page is popular, can I use static web page to present the UI?(11:32)
acockburn对umlchina说: OO Design: the class diagram, and
a few sample sequence charts.(11:33)
acockburn对umlchina说: not too many sequence charts,
because they get out of date very quickly.(11:33)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: but many of them are no
useful. on the other side, when I need maintenance the system , I also didn't
find thing whic I need.(11:33)
acockburn对umlchina说: (using the web page - Yes use
anything and everything that speeds your work and communicates with your
readers)(11:34)
acockburn对umlchina说: Database: Database Schema, or
entity-relationship-diagram.(11:34)
bucolic对acockburn说: sometimes I can get the operation
of class from sequence charts.(11:34)
acockburn对umlchina说: Requirements: Use cases +
required data formats crossing the system boundaries.(11:34)
acockburn对umlchina说: Architecture: Connections to
other systems.(11:35)
acockburn对umlchina说: (correct - I like to design
directly in sequence charts - they help me think through the behavior)(11:35)
joekazz进入聊天室.(11:35)
bendan2008进入聊天室.(11:36)
acockburn对umlchina说: Architecture: there should be a
short (1-5 pages) document of text and some drawings in which the architect or
lead designer(11:36)
acockburn对umlchina说: ..."explains" in words
how thesystem is structured and works.(11:36)
lihonglei进入聊天室.(11:36)
acockburn对umlchina说: ...These words fill in all the
little gaps of expression that fall through the UML diagrams.(11:37)
bucolic对acockburn说: in general.if architecture should
design by one person?(11:37)
acockburn对bucolic说: Sorry, Bucolic, I was answer your
question all that time, ddidn't notice that my target address was naming
UMLCHINA.(11:38)
acockburn对bucolic说: beg your pardon.(11:38)
acockburn对bucolic说: Most people say only one person,
but i was on a 40person project, and we used three of us as an architecture
team, and it worked fine.(11:39)
bucolic对acockburn说: sorry.(11:39)
acockburn对bucolic说: So I think it can be done.(11:39)
gigix进入聊天室.(11:39)
boss_ch进入聊天室.(11:40)
acockburn对大家说: OK, 20 minutes left. What is the
next topic, or what topic do you want to return to?(11:41)
bucolic对acockburn说: any other's question?(11:41)
bucolic对acockburn说: can I ask the last
question?(11:41)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: when I use UML express the
requirement, should I throw away the old technology such as flow-chart, E-R
digram etc?(11:41)
umlchina对acockburn说: In a modeling tool such as
Rational Rose, we can't put the system boundary box on a use-case diagram.
system boundary is missing from the diagram. Is it a right choice?(11:42)
acockburn对umlchina说: Interesting you say that about
the use case diagram.(11:42)
nix00000对acockburn说: The detail design of UC.(11:42)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: tell the difference between UC
and the old expressing methods for requirements(11:43)
acockburn对umlchina说: I didn't know that Rose doesn't
show the system boundary.(11:43)
gb_hover离开了聊天室.(11:43)
acockburn对umlchina说: Personally, I don't care, but my
friend with whom I disagree about CRUD use cases(11:43)
acockburn对umlchina说: really gets upset when that
boundary line isn't there (her name is Susan Lilly, maybe you saw her
article(11:43)
acockburn对umlchina说: on 10 mistakes in writing use
cases? that was one of them)(11:43)
ee96pyg对acockburn说: Can you talk about some keywords
about evolution of use case?(11:44)
acockburn对umlchina说: I'm afraid to say anything too
negative about Rose,(11:44)
umlchina对大家说: yes(11:44)
umlchina对acockburn说: yes(11:44)
*xkfy对acockburn说: next topic,how to get enough
software requirement.(11:44)
*xkfy对acockburn说: next topic,how to get enough
software requirement.(11:44)
acockburn对umlchina说: particularly since I don't
specialize in CASE tools...(11:44)
acockburn对umlchina说: but in my travels, I have not
heard anyone recommend Rose over any other tools.(11:44)
acockburn对umlchina说: I have, however, heard people
recommend other tools over Rose,(11:45)
acockburn对umlchina说: and I have heard many complaints
about Rose.(11:45)
acockburn对umlchina说: So take your chances.(11:45)
acockburn对umlchina说: These days, what i hear people
saying is that Together/J is a good tool(11:45)
bucolic对acockburn说: I find it is difficult to convert
analysis model to design model with rup, can you give me some
suggestions?(11:45)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: tell us about other
tools(11:45)
acockburn对umlchina说: and that it really permits you to
move back and forth between the UML diagram and the code.(11:45)
umlchina对acockburn说: thanks!(11:45)
acockburn对umlchina说: To bothe umlchina and bucolic:
you will find it revealing, in the context of these questions,(11:46)
acockburn对umlchina说: that I have *never* used Rational
Rose.(11:46)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: Together/J's website
URL?(11:46)
rojes进入聊天室.(11:46)
acockburn对umlchina说: Why not? Because I don't draw
many UML diagrams.(11:46)
acockburn对umlchina说: I draw them on whiteboard
(printiing whiteboards preferably)(11:47)
bucolic对acockburn说: www.togethersoft.com?(11:47)
acockburn对umlchina说: Those I do draw, I draw by hand,
or in Visio, which is a pure drawing too,(11:47)
acockburn对umlchina说: very cheap and very easy to use,
and it produces no code whatsoever.(11:47)
acockburn对umlchina说: Ever since 1992, up through and
including 2000, I try the CASE tools briefly, n(11:47)
acockburn对umlchina说: and keep finding they waste our
time.(11:48)
blusky77进入聊天室.(11:48)
acockburn对umlchina说: Better to find a pure drawing
tool and just draw.(11:48)
acockburn对umlchina说: That's why I perked up when I
heard programmers telling me that Together/J actually works.(11:48)
acockburn对umlchina说: Of course I haven't triedit
myself yet :-) so I don't really know.(11:49)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Other tools: printing
whiteboards are great. Digital cameras are almost as good, and(11:49)
umlchina对acockburn说: NEVER USED RATIONAL ROSE--SO
COOL!!!!!!!!(11:49)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: my friends tell me that the
Pixid software (probably www.pixid.com) does a very good job of(11:50)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: cleaning up the picture so
that you can really use it after wards.(11:50)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Other tools: configuration
management / version control system is the first tool after the compiler that
all my contacts recommend.(11:50)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: I think a Case tool should
save analyst's time(11:50)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: otherwise, it's a bad
tool(11:51)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Other tools: performance
measuring tool(11:51)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Other tools: Lotus Notes is
very good to hold use cases, and also the bug-reports database.(11:51)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: TOOLS you will notiice these
tools:(11:52)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: 1. Compiler, performance
tuning tool, helps a programmer make code.(11:52)
fuzhong对acockburn说: over?(11:52)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: 2. Configuration management
tool: helps the team keep their code in sync.(11:52)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: 3. Lotus Notes: helps the team
keep their non-code exchanges in sync.(11:53)
*xkfy对acockburn说: the pure draw tool but can fit
almost every drawing needs,and freely,that's enough(11:53)
*xkfy对acockburn说: the pure draw tool but can fit
almost every drawing needs,and freely,that's enough(11:53)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: 4.Visio: helps people draw
pictures without trauma.(11:53)
adamli进入聊天室.(11:53)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: about case tools in
detail?(11:54)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: 5. Final tool: Get yourself
JUnit, or CppUnit, or VBUnit, and start making small regression tests for(11:54)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: small pieces of your
code.(11:54)
*xkfy对acockburn说: how about smartdraw?(11:54)
*xkfy对acockburn说: how about smartdraw?(11:54)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: The people I talk to who once
ever start writing little sets of tests for their code that are easy(11:54)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: to write and easy to
run,(11:54)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Never give them up
again.(11:54)
acockburn对xkfy说: Smartdraw? I don't know it - but just
use any tool that works well.(11:55)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: thanks(11:56)
charles_y对acockburn说: can i ask the order to implement
a OO project?(11:56)
charles_y对acockburn说: does it form a right steps:use
case(including requirements),main abstraction,layer define,architecture mechnism
define,class define,use case realization?(11:56)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: You will notice the complete
absence of CASE tools in my tool list.(11:56)
aspring进入聊天室.(11:56)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: I interviewed project teams
from 1991 to 2001, and i have only heard two teams say that the CASE tools
helped them.(11:56)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: yes. why?(11:56)
adamli对acockburn说: Alistair, is this your first time
chat with a group of software people in China?(11:57)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Ask: what do I want this tool
to do for me? If the answer is "generate code", then probably the tool
will be a waste of money.(11:57)
acockburn对adamli说: If it is some other answer, then
one of teh other tools I mentioned will do the job.(11:57)
acockburn对adamli说: Hi, Adamli - yes my first
time.(11:58)
acockburn对adamli说: I have absolutely no idea where you
people are sitting, what your ages or backgrounds are, or anything.(11:58)
adamli对acockburn说: what's the reason you accept the
invitation?(11:58)
acockburn对adamli说: All I can do is guess and what to
type from the sequence of questions.(11:58)
acockburn对adamli说: Because umlchina asked, and I have
never done it before :-)(11:59)
bucolic对acockburn说: Alistair, If I have some questions
to ask you , can I send email to you ?(11:59)
acockburn对adamli说: If I had already done it a few
times, then I might say I am too busy.(11:59)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: this is first time to me to
hear such comment about case tools. very intersting. thank you(11:59)
acockburn对bucolic说: On sending me email:(11:59)
acockburn对bucolic说: I do try to answer email. But I am
working very hard to finish my next book in the next 2 weeks,(12:00)
acockburn对bucolic说: So I will not answer any difficult
or long questions.(12:00)
acockburn对bucolic说: in the next few weeks.(12:00)
acockburn对bucolic说: After that, I'll answer a few
more.(12:00)
charles_y对acockburn说: can we have your email
address,just the one you registered here?(12:01)
adamli对acockburn说: I am actually in U.S. I was working
for ThoughtWorks.(12:01)
acockburn对bucolic说: Eventually, the questions will
start to take up too much of my time, and I'll write that I can't answer any
more questions.(12:01)
bucolic对acockburn说: thanks.(12:01)
umlchina对大家说: Thank you all, thank you professor
cockburn, we had a nice morning here(12:01)
acockburn对adamli说: That's pretty funny. You know I
spent some time there.(12:02)
acockburn对adamli说: How did you hear of this
webcast?(12:02)
charles_y对acockburn说: thank you.(12:02)
adamli对acockburn说: I like your new book.(12:02)
acockburn对charles_y说: send email to
acockburn@aol.com(12:02)
fuzhong对acockburn说: Thank you.(12:02)
acockburn对charles_y说: also, read all the articles on
my web site:(12:02)
acockburn对charles_y说:
http://members.aol.com/acockburn(12:02)
adamli对acockburn说: I visit this group and xpchina
group a lot.(12:03)
acockburn对charles_y说: I put most of my articles up
there. My next bookis already up there in complete form (although 3rd draft, not
final copy)(12:03)
umlchina对大家说: ok. webcast is over.
大家可以留下来继续交流，也希望多提意见。(12:03)
adamli对acockburn说: I am trying to promote Xp and other
Agile methods in China.(12:03)
charles_y对acockburn说: ok,thanks a lot(12:03)
acockburn对charles_y说: Also visit
www.crystalmethodologies.org(12:03)
acockburn对charles_y说: there is a wiki server there,
where we can continue the discussions.(12:04)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: It's happy to see you discuss
on this chat room. I hope that I can see you again in the future. thank
you(12:04)
acockburn对adamli说: Are you in Chicago?(12:04)
adamli对acockburn说: no, I am in San Francisco.(12:04)
acockburn对adamli说: send me your email (offline) and
let's see when we'll be in the same place.(12:05)
adamli对acockburn说: Will you be interested to have your
new book translated into Chinese?(12:05)
acockburn对umlchina说: OK TIME TO GO(12:05)
acockburn对umlchina说: It's time for me to go.(12:05)
acockburn对umlchina说: Thank you for the good questions.
and for asking so many.(12:05)
acockburn对umlchina说: that made it easier.(12:06)
umlchina对acockburn说: OK！ Good night! thanks
again(12:06)
bucolic对大家说: thanks for your answers.(12:06)
acockburn对umlchina说: My fingers and forearms are vey
tired.(12:06)
acockburn对umlchina说: Best wishes to all of you.(12:06)
acockburn对umlchina说: bye now.(12:06)
umlchina对acockburn说: Yes, two hours.....(12:06)
umlchina对acockburn说: bye(12:06)
charles_y对acockburn说: bye,a nice day(12:06)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: it's kind of you really.
bye(12:06)
bucolic对acockburn说: bye(12:07)
acockburn对umlchina说: Oh, by the way, umlchina, the
last 2 days, all my emails to you bounced back as undeliverable.(12:07)
xkfy对adamli说: hi(12:08)
acockburn对umlchina说: Please send me an email with a
good return address for you.(12:08)
acockburn对umlchina说: bye again.(12:08)
umlchina对acockburn说: oh? any trouble with
think@umlchina.com?(12:08)
adamli对xkfy说: hello(12:08)
umlchina对acockburn说: I will check it!(12:09)
boss_ch离开了聊天室.(12:09)
acockburn对umlchina说: Yes, it didn't work the last two
days. Unrecoverable error it said. I triied three times.(12:09)
nix00000离开了聊天室.(12:09)
umlchina对acockburn说: It seems I got all your
mails(12:10)
kerish离开了聊天室.(12:11)
lihonglei离开了聊天室.(12:11)
trybird对大家说:
过程改进是艰难的，就象历史上所有的改革一样，光有激情和梦想是不够的！你还要有韬略和权谋，善识人心人性，兼顾各自私利……(12:38)
trybird对大家说:
项目组里不但要有乖孩子，还要有造反者，Team Leader要敢于任用造反的人(12:40)
trybird对大家说:
再会了！各位。有深圳的哥们请联络 QQ 4547288(12:41)
gigix进入聊天室.(12:41)
gigix对大家说: 还有这么多人啊。(12:42)
gigix对大家说: 现在的几位，你们好。(12:42)
gigix对trybird说:
你还在吗？我认识一个深圳的朋友。(12:43)
trybird对大家说:
绝对的技术至上是十分混蛋的想法……(12:43)
hdw1978进入聊天室.(12:44)
trybird对大家说:
我马上要走了，愿遍结天下高手——古有孟尝君，今有trybird(12:45)
trybird对大家说: 吃饭去了！再会！朋友们(12:45)
gigix对trybird说: 再见。(12:45)
trybird对gigix说: 再见！ ：）(12:47)
gigix对大家说: 剩下的几位，有什么话题没？(12:47)
