UMLChina第23期专家交流 实录




嘉宾:Jutta Eckstein。Jutta Eckstein住在慕尼黑,是一名独立咨询专家,有超过20年的面向对象开发经验。Hillside Europe e.V.委员会成员,XP 2002, EuroPLoP 2002, OT2002 and OOPSLA 2002委员会成员。人民邮电出版社出版的《极限编程研究》(XP Examined)有她的文章“特洛伊木马中的XP:重构统一软件开发过程”。



umlchina对juttaeckstein说: hi, ms. jutta eckstein(14:42)
zty77对大家说: test(14:43)
umlchina对大家说: 嘉宾到了,欢迎(14:43)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: Hi! It seems also not everything is working for me.(14:44)
lhhwanmit对大家说: yeah,you are welcome(14:45)
umlchina对juttaeckstein说: any trouble?(14:45)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: not important. I found a way around. - Selecting people doesn't work.(14:46)
lhhwanmit对大家说: i want to use xp in my project,but xp is fit for small project(14:46)
lhhwanmit对大家说: which part of xp that i can change to fit my project(14:47)
umlchina对juttaeckstein说: you need not select people,just type your answer,mention the question in the answer.(14:47)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: How big is your project lhhwanmit?(14:48)
lhhwanmit对大家说: about 600 man month(14:48)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: How many people are on the team?(14:48)
lhhwanmit对大家说: about 30(14:48)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: All developers or are some of them also business (and other) people?(14:49)
ool对juttaeckstein说: can you describe the general process of using UML designing a project model?(14:50)
ool对juttaeckstein说: Thank you(14:51)
lhhwanmit对大家说: yes(14:51)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: I'm not sure what you mean by project model?(14:51)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: I design mainly the software with uml well and the processes(14:51)
lhhwanmit对大家说: it is a goverment project(14:51)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: And you are forced to work with a team of that size?(14:52)
lhhwanmit很高兴地对大家说: haha,you humorous,i am the leader of this new team(14:53)
ool对juttaeckstein说: I mean a model of a general project, and I want to know the geneal sequece to make a model(14:53)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: Ok, so why do you want to have 30 people on the team(14:53)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: If maybe less will be better?(14:53)
yunhuang6对juttaeckstein说: would you like to talk about how to apply rup on our projects?(14:53)
lhhwanmit很高兴地对大家说: the java team 8(14:53)
lhhwanmit对大家说: test team 8(14:54)
ool对大家说: I'm new to UML(14:54)
lhhwanmit对大家说: Notes team 5(14:54)
lhhwanmit对大家说: 3 leader(14:54)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: General sequence of a model: Typically something like modelling(14:54)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: processes comes first. This could also be done via story cards and(14:54)
lhhwanmit对大家说: so it is about 30 totally(14:55)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: communication. But sometimes UML gives you a better overview.(14:55)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: The main other models follow as soon as you need them.(14:55)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: E.g. while you are working on a story, you model the story and(14:55)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: implement the tests and the code.(14:56)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: Ok. Lhhwanmit: You're project doesn't seem to be too big for XP to me(14:56)
lhhwanmit对大家说: oh?(14:56)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: You should make sure that the test team is present from the very(14:57)
lhhwanmit对大家说: so you mean that it is perfect for xp?(14:57)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: beginning. They should define the acceptance tests for the stories.(14:57)
gigix对大家说: Ms. Eckstein, how do you think about Software Engineering? Is it a kind of science?(14:57)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: While the developers are working on the code (and unit tests).(14:57)
andiyang对juttaeckstein说: Hi,juttaeckstein,I want to konw.How to use XP to set up models ?(14:58)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: Yes. I can't see any problems regarding size. Make further sure(14:58)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: that they are located close together, so communication is ensured.(14:58)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: oops SWE a science? It's also a science, but next to that it's(14:58)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: an art, a craft and engineering well and a little bit of manufacturing.(14:59)
lhhwanmit对大家说: oh,software engineering is a philosophy problem(14:59)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: andiyang: What kind of models are you talking about?(14:59)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: Exactly lhhwanmit!(15:00)
gigix对大家说: In SWE, most of we said is "how to", but not "Why".(15:00)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: Hmm, don't agree we often also say why, otherwise we would have(15:00)
gigix对juttaeckstein说: Although we solved some problem using some SWE method,(15:00)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: never discovered any patterns for example.(15:00)
gigix对juttaeckstein说: Can we prove that we can do it next time?(15:01)
lhhwanmit对juttaeckstein说: juttaeckstein,thank you for your answer for my question.can you agree that software engineering is a philosophy problem?(15:01)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: Yes I agree.(15:01)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: What can we do next time gigix?(15:01)
lhhwanmit微笑着对juttaeckstein说: you catch one side,but lose other sides simutaneously(15:02)
gigix对juttaeckstein说: I mean, is there any way to prove that our approach is right?(15:02)
andiyang对juttaeckstein说: Hi,juttaeckstein,Which kind of mode is used in XP project more extensive?(15:03)
hujj对大家说: Hi, Ms juttaeckstein. I found there was too many models when i design with UML sometimes, how can I do it better and manage it easy? thanks.(15:03)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: Well every project is a prove -- as soon as you succeed. And what's success? If the customer is happy.(15:03)
lhhwanmit微笑着对juttaeckstein说: agree(15:03)
lhhwanmit微笑着对juttaeckstein说: but more(15:03)
ool对juttaeckstein说: What's the difference and resemblance between user story in XP and use case in UML?((15:04)
cwj.007很高兴地对大家说: agree(15:04)
mycluster2001对大家说: hello everybody(15:04)
mycluster2001对大家说: good afternoon(15:04)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: hujj: You don't have to use all the models. Use the ones which help you to do your job. I myself like class and collaboration diagram.(15:04)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: But although I like them I don't use them all the time.(15:05)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: Short answer: If you look just at the UC-diagram, they are not really different.(15:06)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: A user story relies on further communication with the customer (because she will change her mind anyway). UC's rely more on fine-grained szenarios.(15:06)
gigix对juttaeckstein说: I have some questions about patterns:(15:07)
gigix对juttaeckstein说: Some time I use a pattern and solved a problem,(15:07)
gigix对juttaeckstein说: but next time I use this pattern on an similar problem and I failed.(15:07)
lhhwanmit对juttaeckstein说: perfect(15:07)
gigix对juttaeckstein说: So I want to know: how can we prove that a pattern will fit "the problem"?(15:07)
gigix对juttaeckstein说: Do you have any suggestion?(15:07)
hujj对大家说: Thanks, it's helpful to me.(15:08)
mycluster2001对大家说: Hello Mrs Juttaeckstein. Are there any support in uml to map domain models into uml described software architecture?(15:08)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: No there is no recipe. Look closely at the context and the forces of the pattern and double check if they fit your problem(15:08)
mycluster2001对大家说: As I feel, creating a model to describe application does not automatically ensure the correct of it.(15:09)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: Other than that the only real proof is to try it. And if it doesn't work throw it away. I hope you designed your system so simple (and you have the tests) that this is(15:09)
ool对juttaeckstein说: whether using UML in XP is better than not?(15:09)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: not a problem(15:09)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: mycluster: not that I know. But I'm not sure how this could be automated. There are some things SW-dev. will need our brains ;-)(15:10)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: thanks(15:11)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: do you know something about domain modelling(15:11)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: Very true. The correctness of a model is only proved when you have the code in place. Therefore don't model for a long time - write the test for your model (the code!)(15:11)
gigix对juttaeckstein说: Ms. Eckstein, do you be accomplished in refactoring?(15:12)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: ool: different people different strategies. I use UML whenever it helps me to get my job done (although I use XP). Other people have the model in their mind and they(15:13)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: don't need to draw it on paper.(15:13)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: Not sure what you are asking for both: mycluster and gigix??(15:13)
gigix对juttaeckstein说: Have you ever refactored in C++?(15:14)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: Sure I have. But honestly it's long ago. I haven't developed any C++ in the last 5/6 years. Why?(15:15)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: In my experience, I would like to make abstract models on paper(15:16)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: These models(if they are) may across lots of parts of the result codes(15:16)
gigix对juttaeckstein说: William Opdyke said that...(15:17)
ool对juttaeckstein说: can you explain refactoring? I don't have a clear mind of it.Thank you?(15:17)
athlonshi对大家说: "No functionality is added early"how do you explain this sentence(15:18)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: mycluster: I also prefer to make some models on paper. I try to make them not as much abstract, because otherwise it will be hard to proof with code that it works.(15:18)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: yes(15:18)
gigix对juttaeckstein说: The C++ language is a semantically complicated language... these complexities make it dicult to more precisely de ne what behavior preservation means for C++ programs.(15:18)
gigix对juttaeckstein说: Then can we prove that our refactoring in C++ is right?(15:18)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: Furthermore if you make them too abstract typically you assume to many unnecessary things. Model/develop only the things, the customer has asked for.(15:19)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: That's right. But I may have to insert more components into the system than the model I show to customers.(15:20)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: ool: Refactoring means changing the code so the internal structure is improved and the external behavior isn't changed(15:20)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: I think this may be necessary to achieve the goal of re-configurable, performance or just the reason of porting.(15:21)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: athlonshi: Functionality is only added when needed. Means when the customer has asked for it. Even if you believe the functionality will be required, you never know if(15:21)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: the customer will change her mind.(15:21)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: gigix: The most important support you can get for refactoring is not the language but the tools. I heard that some people are working for a refactoring browser for C++.(15:22)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: but I don't know if it's already working. Look occassionally at
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: mycluster: You don't need to show the model to the customer. Show the running system to the customer. Also in the code is stuff the customer is not interested in, but if(15:23)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: it thelps to sw to run, she will agree.(15:24)
ilovebear对大家说: what is xp?(15:24)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: Furthermore performance etc: Only consider this, if the customer asked for and if you got it running without it: Make it run, make it right, make it fast.(15:25)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: ilovebear: XP is a process, which combines proven techniques (best practices), which are helping to make us and our customer successful (talking of sw-dev.)(15:26)
ilovebear对juttaeckstein说: I see ,how can I get more information about XP?(15:27)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: sorry(15:29)
mycluster2001对ool说: sorry(15:29)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: ilovebear: look at,,
mycluster2001对ool说: i am not sure(15:29)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: And the Kent Beck's first book is a good start: eXtreme Programming explained. Embrace Change(15:30)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: oops, sorry the last web site I mentioned is wrong (the .com)(15:30)
juttaeckstein对umlchina说: mycluster: What's wrong, can you elaborate?(15:31)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: i speak to ool(15:31)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: In fact(15:32)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: As I think, correct model is the start of any project(15:32)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: especially for softwares that have long life time(15:33)
mypine对大家说: Hello, juttaeckstein(15:33)
juttaeckstein对大家说: mycluster: I don't think so, because I have never seen a correct model at the start of the project, only at the end of a project.(15:33)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: i agree(15:34)
mypine对大家说: juttaeckstein, XP means that we should denied the Design?(15:34)
juttaeckstein对大家说: mypine: No, on the contrary. XP is a lot about design. But XP admits that we are not able to make a correct desing before we prove it with code.(15:36)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: so it's a very big problem to maintain the ability to adjust the model and related codes and data during the process of development(15:37)
mypine对大家说: Which element is the most important in XP?(15:37)
juttaeckstein对大家说: mycluster: You should only maintain that stuff that you need. In my projects I often need the UML diagrams for understanding what I'm supposed to do(15:38)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: yes(15:39)
juttaeckstein对大家说: But I don't need them later on. If I need them later on I maintain them.(15:39)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: is that 'configuration management'?(15:39)
mypine对大家说: juttaeckstein, do you think that how to start the XP in my project?(15:40)
juttaeckstein对大家说: mypine: Difficult question. Everything is so well integrated... I would say communication. Why? Because most of the failed project I have seen, failed because of that.(15:40)
juttaeckstein对大家说: mycluster: No, config. man. just helps you to keep track of different versions (which is important). But it doesn't help to make these versions.(15:41)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: i see(15:42)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: dear Mrs. Eckstein, i have a question about component or object technology and the traditional process based operating system(15:42)
juttaeckstein对大家说: mypine: Focus on the most pressing problem and use an XP technology to address that. Often unit tests is a good start, it's e.g. the precondition for refactoring.(15:42)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: i think these two techniques are not the same in nature.(15:43)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: maybe i have to encapsulate several processes into an object(15:43)
juttaeckstein对大家说: Generally you can build a cobol system using XP and a Ruby system using a linear (waterfall) approach. The one doesn't imply the other.(15:44)
juttaeckstein对大家说: But: You will benefit from the modern processes more, if you are using a more modern language. (The emphasis is on 'more')(15:44)
mypine对大家说: is the user rule in an XP project prerequisite?(15:45)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: this may hinder me to establish frameworks by general design patterns.(15:45)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: for example, object A may be designed to access B's interface. However they are not in the same process.(15:46)
eurekahyj对大家说: 我也来凑个热闹(15:46)
juttaeckstein对大家说: mypine: It should be a prerequisite in any project. How do you know otherwise that you develop what's requested? Of course sometimes you have to find a way with groups of(15:46)
juttaeckstein对大家说: users, anonymous users (e.g. use the marketing dep.), or not really always available users. But you should always work on a very close relationship to the user/customer(15:47)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: I am not sure whether A could access B directly since they are in different memory areas.(15:48)
eurekahyj满脸奸笑着对大家说: What's the difference aong the so many object programming technologies?(15:48)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: Maybe thread is also a problem(15:48)
juttaeckstein对大家说: mycluster: So what's the question?(15:48)
eurekahyj满脸奸笑着对umlchina说: What's the difference aong the so many object programming technologies?(15:48)(15:49)
juttaeckstein对大家说: eurekahyi: Are you talking of languages or of processes, or something else?(15:49)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: So the problem is that the mechanism of process communicating does not support object-oriented(15:49)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: directly(15:49)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: yes(15:49)
eurekahyj满脸奸笑着对juttaeckstein说: the process, of course(15:50)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: the confliction between object-oriented language mechanism and process mechanism in operating system(15:50)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: although in the design of CORBA, some patterns for concurrence are used(15:51)
juttaeckstein对大家说: eurekahyj: Well some are more strict and rigid, by telling you which step has to follow which other step, whereas others allow you to adapt the process to the specific(15:51)
juttaeckstein对大家说: needs of your project(15:51)
eurekahyj对juttaeckstein说: Is the PSP fit for a group?(15:51)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: yes(15:52)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: so I would like to use corba or something else(15:52)
mypine微笑着对大家说: juttaeckstein, you know that, user is our god, but, in fact, user is non-rational god, so that the user rule in an XP project is very difficult for implemetating!(15:53)
juttaeckstein对大家说: eurekahyj: Well PSP is for the individual, where each individual is important for the team. But for the whole team you might want to look at TSP(15:53)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: but i have to know more about specific middleware systems, rather than UML(15:53)
juttaeckstein对大家说: mycluster: Are you sure you need Corba? I have seen only a few projects where Corba was really helpful and needed.(15:53)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: maybe(15:53)
eurekahyj对juttaeckstein说: what's the correlation between the object language, process, refractoring and the XP ?(15:54)
juttaeckstein对大家说: In most of the other projects people assumed they will need Corba and introduced much more flexibility and therefore complexity in their system than required(15:54)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: if i do not use corba, i could use other ways(15:54)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: but of course, they may be not simple(15:55)
juttaeckstein对大家说: eurekahyj: Refactoring is a technique in XP, but could also be used outside XP. XP itself is a process. And you can use any language combined with any process generally,(15:55)
juttaeckstein对大家说: but XP is most often used in combination with an oo lang.(15:55)
juttaeckstein对大家说: mycluster: or they might be even simpler...(15:55)
mypine对大家说: 对不起, 我觉得你们不应该问到juttaeckstein诸如像Are you sure you need Corba?这种问题, 这样很浪费大家的时间!(15:56)
eurekahyj对juttaeckstein说: Well. I see ?(15:56)
mypine对大家说: 我建议大家将问题集中在XP的实施及其与其它的敏捷方法或重型方法的比较上,而不是于技术上的选择!(15:56)
juttaeckstein对大家说: That's what I tried to say: Corba isn't the solution for everything, you have to consider it carefully, because of the complexity. When in doubt, don't use it.(15:57)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: thanks(15:57)
mypine对大家说: juttaeckstein, you know that, user is our god, but, in fact, user is non-rational god, so that the user rule in an XP project is very difficult for implemetating!(15:58)
mycluster2001对大家说: i think i should keep silent for a while(15:58)
eurekahyj对juttaeckstein说: Is XP fit for corba or com ? Or are they different stuffs at all?(15:58)
mypine对大家说: so that, is there other way to prune the XP sulotion in our project?((15:58)
mycluster2001对大家说: and give more opportunities to other people(15:58)
juttaeckstein对大家说: mypine: But why do you want to develop a system, if you want to ignore the customer?? Without the customer, no project - or maybe a project, but no success.(15:59)
mypine对juttaeckstein说: yes, no customer, no success.(15:59)
juttaeckstein对大家说: eurekahyj: They are different things. The only thing is that XP always recommends to use the simplest technology possible.(16:00)
eurekahyj对juttaeckstein说: does XP only do with the coding (the existing code) ? not with teh corba or somethinf else ?(16:00)
mypine对juttaeckstein说: in the other word, the user rule in XP must be needed!(16:00)
eurekahyj对juttaeckstein说: I think I must learn more about the XP(16:01)
zhoucw对大家说: juttaeckstein would you tell me about ejb's using?(16:01)
juttaeckstein对大家说: eurekahyj: if you use corba, you also have to code. So what's your question?(16:01)
juttaeckstein对大家说: mypine: Please take this one with you: The customer is needed in *every* project, not in a XP project only!(16:02)
juttaeckstein对大家说: zhoucw: Could you be more specific?(16:02)
eurekahyj对juttaeckstein说: i do not know yet. My point is that there must be some relationship among the methods of constructing a system ?(16:02)
mypine对juttaeckstein说: what should we noticed when we implement an XP projrect?(16:03)
mypine对juttaeckstein说: what do you have some suggestion?(16:03)
eurekahyj对juttaeckstein说: Maybe this is so big a problem and hard to say it clearly in a few words ?(16:03)
juttaeckstein对大家说: eurekahyj: Yes. But you can use any dev. process for any kind of technology. And if you decide to use XP and the system requires also to use corba, it's fine.(16:03)
juttaeckstein对大家说: But always question complex technology, if it's really needed.(16:04)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: dear eckstein, how about the soul of XP? I mean the difference between XP and other software engineering technology(16:04)
eurekahyj对juttaeckstein说: Can you tell us your email address, so we can ask you the question after this session?(16:05)
juttaeckstein对大家说: mypine: Look for your biggest problem and address it with a xp practice. Ensure that everybody knows about everything in the project.(16:05)
mycluster2001对juttaeckstein说: Is it a software process technology?(16:05)
newdongkui对juttaeckstein说: hello,I have read some document, they show that "a project should be split in more little segment which crycle are less than three month" ,what do you think about that.(16:05)
juttaeckstein对大家说: mycluster: I thought you wanted to be silent ;-) Good that you are back! I believe the sould is open and honest communication.(16:06)
juttaeckstein对大家说: eurekahyj:
eurekahyj对juttaeckstein说: Discussion will always give us a closer distance. But more questions have occured. Thanks for your generosity .(16:07)
juttaeckstein对大家说: newdongkui: Actually 3 months cycles are pretty long. It's always good advice to make the cycles as short as possible to get early feedback on the system.(16:07)
juttaeckstein对大家说: eurekahyj: But don't be disappointed if it will me take a while to answer...(16:07)
eurekahyj对juttaeckstein说: Well, everyone keeps silence ?(16:09)
newdongkui对juttaeckstein说: surely.I advise my boss, every work ,to pair programmer,never be long than two week.(16:10)
ool对juttaeckstein说: can you talk sth about test before code,I don't know clearly about it?(16:10)
eurekahyj对大家说: Is there an analogy between coding and biology techiniques, such as the dissection, or the Windows DNA technology ? ?(16:11)
juttaeckstein对大家说: newdongkui: And make sure you have a running system every day, with new minor funtionality every week and major functionality every month.(16:11)
juttaeckstein对大家说: ool: If you consider the test before you implement the actual code, this forces you to think about the requirements, the design the interface of the thing (e.g. class)(16:12)
juttaeckstein对大家说: you want to implement.(16:12)
juttaeckstein对大家说: eurekahyj: no idea.(16:12)
eurekahyj对大家说: Now I'm thing about deveop a system concerning about the environmental geochemistry. While my major is not computer-related, It is a big problem.(16:13)
newdongkui对juttaeckstein说: thanks a lot, I think more question will be send to you mailbox,pls help me.(16:13)
juttaeckstein对大家说: eurekahyj: I don't think so, except if you have nobody on the team, being an expert in sw-dev. But especially with XP, via pair programming the knowledge is transfered(16:15)
juttaeckstein对大家说: newdongkui: you saw my email address before?(16:15)
newdongkui对juttaeckstein说: you are welcome(16:15)
xftang对大家说: is there any difference between the use story(xp) and use case(uml)(16:16)
zhoucw对juttaeckstein说: would you tell me how can i get useful datum of ejb(16:16)
eurekahyj对大家说: So a developing team should be diversified, versatile ?(16:17)
juttaeckstein对大家说: xftang: longer answer: look at Alistair Cockburn's book about 'writing effective use cases' and check his web site. Short answer: no major difference. But a bigger(16:17)
juttaeckstein对大家说: difference is between a szenario (UML) and the communication (XP).(16:17)
juttaeckstein对大家说: zhoucw: Don't understand. What's a datum?(16:18)
juttaeckstein对大家说: eurekahyj: Yes.(16:18)
xftang对大家说: how do u think of the importance of Communication in XP?(16:19)
juttaeckstein对大家说: xftang: In my opinion it the most important value.(16:21)
zhaowenbin对juttaeckstein说: What's "XUP"?(16:21)
xftang对大家说: how can we communicate with each other without document?(16:22)
founder_chen对大家说: XUP= XP + RUP(16:22)
eurekahyj对大家说: What's the future of XP ? Will it transform into another tech? Just like where it come from ?(16:22)
juttaeckstein对大家说: qhao(16:22)
founder_chen对juttaeckstein说: qhao, what's you mean?(16:23)
juttaeckstein对大家说: sorry. zhaowenbin: Not sure. I believe you are referring to Craig Larman's change of the RUP?(16:23)
xftang对大家说: i think it is very difficult that we communicate with our customer in china!(16:24)
juttaeckstein对大家说: xftang: What about directly? Just talk to the people. As Jim Highsmith said: documenting is not the same as understanding.(16:24)
eurekahyj对juttaeckstein说: What's the future of XP ? Will it transform into another tech? Just like where it come from ?(16:24)
xftang对大家说: we should communicate with customer and our team worker!(16:25)
juttaeckstein对大家说: eurekahyj: You never know. But all the values and practices of XP are around for a very long time, so I believe it will be around for a lot longer. Maybe with another nam(16:25)
founder_chen对juttaeckstein说: I want to build a XP team , what should I do first?(16:25)
xftang对大家说: it is impossible that we have not any documents for the bid(16:25)
juttaeckstein对大家说: founder_chen: qhao - I was typing to fast... So this meant nothing. Does it mean anything in chinese?(16:25)
juttaeckstein对大家说: xftang: Why is it difficult to communicate with the customer? What is in China more difficult than anywhere else?(16:26)
ool对juttaeckstein说: Keeping a design simple is hard work, is it right? And can you talk sth aobut it?(16:26)
juttaeckstein对大家说: founder_chen: Start small. Make sure everybody communicates open and honest. Have people with diverse skills. Look for a XP coach. Have the customer on-site.(16:28)
founder_chen对juttaeckstein说: ^-^, nothing, what do think of design patterns in XP?(16:28)
xftang对大家说: our customers think that building a software system has nothing to do with them(16:28)
eurekahyj对juttaeckstein说: Simplicity is beauty. But there are so many ugly thing in the world as they could be. So the simplicity is sure to be less than...(16:28)
juttaeckstein对大家说: xtang / documents: If you really need the documents, write a story for them, ask the customer to prioritize it, estimate it and consider writing it in the dev. cylce the(16:29)
juttaeckstein对大家说: customer scheduled it.(16:29)
juttaeckstein对大家说: ool: Yes this is true. It needs a lot of discipline. Writing the tests first helps a lot. Implementing only what's required helps also.(16:29)
juttaeckstein对大家说: founder_chen: Sometimes a refactoring will lead you to a design pattern. But don't start designing your code according to design patterns (perhaps they introduce more(16:31)
juttaeckstein对大家说: complexity than required)(16:31)
ool对juttaeckstein说: what about 'have the customer on-site'?(16:31)
xftang对大家说: i think without document is the biggest obstacle in the practising XP.the administation department can not accept it(16:31)
juttaeckstein对大家说: xftang: But your customer wants to have the system. So don't show them the code, or model, but the running system.(16:32)
juttaeckstein对大家说: And ask them to prioritize the stories. What's the most important functionality for them?(16:32)
juttaeckstein对大家说: eurekahyj: Yes, agree. Simplicity is beauty. That's why it's so hard.(16:32)
juttaeckstein对大家说: ool: You should always try to ahve the customer on site. Sometimes you might have to find a workaround, e.g. with anonymous customers use the marketing dep., with a(16:33)
xftang对大家说: yes we can do that. but every thing is through the telephone.the customers can not attend our team every day.(16:34)
juttaeckstein对大家说: group of customers, ask for a representative. If they can't be there everyday, ask them to be there at least 50% and additionally to be reachable by phone and mail.(16:34)
founder_chen对juttaeckstein说: 'customer on site ', Need a CRM system to process customer's questions?(16:35)
eurekahyj对xftang说: show them the interface and tell them what your system can do. That's all. what the customers can do is to click the buttom.(16:35)
juttaeckstein对大家说: xftang: If documenting is a requirement from the customer, you should write the document. It's with every other request.(16:35)
juttaeckstein对大家说: xftang: Ask them to be there at least 1-2 days a week. The minimum is that they should be there, when you have a minor functionality ready, so they can provide their(16:36)
juttaeckstein对大家说: feedback and decide what you should implement in the next cycle.(16:36)
eurekahyj对xftang说: i have heard that Maybe Japanese developer can write the document perfectly(16:36)
juttaeckstein对大家说: founder_chen: Why can't you talk directly with them? Why do you need a system. In my experience you always loose something as soon as you don't talk directly.(16:37)
gaoshmail对juttaeckstein说: in japanese company the document style is rigid(16:37)
juttaeckstein对大家说: eurekahyj/gaoshmail: The important thing is, if the customer prioritizes writing the document higher, than developing a running system.(16:38)
juttaeckstein对大家说: Well with a running system, I mean of course also developing some new functionality.(16:40)
luofat对大家说: why I didn't find "move method" in any refactoring tools(16:40)
eurekahyj对xftang说: So many chinese customer have no any idea of documentation of a system. They simply think that the business of the company(16:40)
xftang对大家说: how about the popurality of XP in usa except in small company?(16:40)
juttaeckstein对大家说: luofat: Eclipse has it, IntelliJ has it, the Smalltalk refactoring browser supports it. At which tool were you looking?(16:41)
juttaeckstein对大家说: xftang: Hmm, I wouldn't regard Daimler Chrysler as a small company. That's where XP started.(16:42)
founder_chen对juttaeckstein说: a team maybe maintain 2 or more project, a customer proxy(maybe te product manager) can't get enough information, sometimes, lost something(16:42)
eurekahyj对大家说: If there no any accumulation of the existing system, how can we use XP ?(16:42)
myvrml对juttaeckstein说: hello,Mr.juttaeckstein,Can I use XP in GIS(Geographical Info SYS)?(16:43)
xftang对大家说: maybe we think the system is our duty,but ignores our customer's responsiblity!they should corprate with us!(16:43)
xftang对大家说: what is the C3 project?(16:44)
myvrml对juttaeckstein说: Did u see some GIS Co. use XP?Can u give me some suggestion or example?(16:44)
juttaeckstein对大家说: founder_chen: I think it's never a good idea if you ask especially developers to share their time between different projects. See also(16:44)
juttaeckstein对大家说: Tom DeMarco in his latest book (Slack) on that topic.(16:44)
juttaeckstein对大家说: eurekahyj: Don't understand your question, can you rephrase?(16:44)
juttaeckstein对大家说: myvrml: Sure. XP doesn't depend on the domain.(16:45)
juttaeckstein对大家说: xftang: C3 is the first XP project, done by Daimler Chrysler. It's a payroll system.(16:46)
luofat对大家说: jrefactory,which eclipse version support it? or what you said is plug in(16:46)
juttaeckstein对大家说: myvrml: I didn't build a GIS system myself. In the last 5 years msot of my projects were commercial ones (finance), before that I was in manufacturing.(16:47)
xftang对大家说: without document,no comments,refactoring,continous integration,test first design they are very easy in theory,but very difficult in practice(16:47)
juttaeckstein对大家说: luofat: We are currently using the latest eclipse version and this one supports it.(16:47)
xftang对大家说: what does C3 stands for? it is abbr. of what?(16:48)
juttaeckstein对大家说: xftang: What do you believe is hard, or what is the hardest part in it? Hmm, well and if you don't try you will never know if it's harder than doing it in another way(16:48)
eurekahyj对大家说: well. I have to have a rest now. maybe i have speak so much(16:48)
myvrml对juttaeckstein说: Many Developer in our Co. r not major in Computer Science,They don't like to write DOC,even they don't konw OO!how can I do?(16:49)
juttaeckstein对大家说: xftang: Chrysler Comprehensive Compensation(16:50)
eurekahyj对大家说: it is not a good company. how it can work and survive!(16:50)
xftang对大家说: how about the other AgileMethodology? such as Crystal(16:51)
juttaeckstein对大家说: myvrml: I assume they are knowledgable in the domain. This would be good. So you need a diversity on your team. Some experts in sw-dev. and pair them with the other ones.(16:51)
zhaowenbin对大家说: Which shell I use xp or rup in the small software company?(16:52)
myvrml对juttaeckstein说: thanks(16:52)
juttaeckstein对大家说: xftang: All of the agile methodologies (also Crystal) require a close relationship with the customer, short cycles, early feedback, etc.(16:52)
xftang对大家说: how many lines of code do the developer write each day on the average(16:53)
xftang对大家说: why so emphasize XP?(16:54)
juttaeckstein对大家说: xftang: What's the prupose of this question? Sometimes when they refactor, they delete more than they write and the system improves a lot.(16:54)
eurekahyj对大家说: is it easy for somebody to learn xp, even he has not done any coding before ?(16:55)
juttaeckstein对大家说: xftang: For me XP is a good starting line. But you should always be sensible to the team, if it is really the best for them and if not change the process.(16:56)
myvrml对juttaeckstein说: If my design is based on structure not OO,Do I need refactoring?(16:56)
juttaeckstein对大家说: eurekahyj: Well I know some people are doing completely other things in an XP manner (e.g. writing books), but on the other hand XP is intended to support sw-dev and(16:57)
juttaeckstein对大家说: focuses on developing systems. Therefore the coding is in the center.(16:57)
juttaeckstein对大家说: Still to learn coding is easier with XP than with another approach, because you have always a buddy next to you, because you pair program.(16:58)
xftang对大家说: i have heard that usa developer just write 20 lines of code each day.but the codes are perfect.(16:58)
juttaeckstein对大家说: myvrml: If you are building a structured system you don't need to refactor.(16:58)
juttaeckstein对大家说: thanks everybody. This was very interesting. Have a good time and I wish you all luck with your projects!(16:59)
myvrml对juttaeckstein说: thank u very much(16:59)
zhaowenbin对juttaeckstein说: thanks a lot(16:59)
umlchina对juttaeckstein说: thank you(16:59)
ool对juttaeckstein说: thank you(17:00)
eurekahyj对大家说: methodology, methodology..... strategy...well, I think each method has its own value.(17:00)
founder_chen对juttaeckstein说: thanks, good bye(17:00)
xftang对juttaeckstein说: thanks a lot(17:00)
eurekahyj对大家说: thank you. bye(17:00)
myvrml对juttaeckstein说: very glad to see u,wish u can have a holiday in China(17:00)
xftang对juttaeckstein说: can u repeat ur email?(17:00)
luofat对大家说: thanks,bye(17:01)
founder_chen对juttaeckstein说: what's your id in yahoo XP group?(17:01)
eurekahyj对lsmodel说: do not ask so personal questions(17:02)
eurekahyj对lsmodel说: I want to find someone interested in GIS developping(17:03)
zhaowenbin对juttaeckstein说: 现在大家不用再说ENGLISH了吧(17:04)
myvrml对eurekahyj说: My Co.'s emphasis is GIS?where r u?I'm in guangzhou(17:05)
ool对大家说: sw-dev 指什么?谁能告诉我。(17:06)
umlchina对大家说: 嘉宾可能没有断网去吃午饭去了,交流到此结束,谢谢大家(17:06)
umlchina对ool说: 我没注意sw-dev,不知道什么意思(17:07)
luofat对大家说: software develop我这么想(17:07)
zhougege对大家说: software_develop(17:07)
zhougege对大家说: 就是这个意思(17:07)
eurekahyj对大家说: 我怎么看不见自己的发言?(17:08)
eurekahyj对大家说: 我在成都。(17:08)
ool对大家说: software develop environment?(17:08)
gigix对大家说: sw-dev是software develop(17:08)
zhaowenbin对大家说: 我同意sw-dev就是software_develop(17:08)
gaoshmail对大家说: 大家可以借这个机会认识一下呀(17:09)
gigix对大家说: 偶刚才去smiling那里发水了。(17:09)
eurekahyj对大家说: myvrml,能否告诉我你的Email.,我的是
ool对大家说: 我想是指软件开发平台吧,software developing environment(17:09)
gaoshmail对大家说: 我只是看过,没实践过(17:09)
myvrml对eurekahyj说: 我想应该是software(17:09)
zhaowenbin对大家说: GAOSHMAIL:你好(17:09)
gaoshmail对大家说: zhaowenbin:你好(17:10)
gigix对大家说: 偶有实践过XP,结果很爽,呵呵(17:10)
myvrml对eurekahyj说: 她的意思是说把专业人员和开发人员pair(17:10)
gaoshmail对大家说: 哦,可以介绍介绍啊(17:10)
myvrml对eurekahyj说: 好的,我是
zhaowenbin对大家说: 认识你很高兴,(17:10)
gaoshmail对大家说: gigix:说说看啊(17:11)
ool对gigix说: can you tell me your email(17:11)
myvrml对eurekahyj说: 透明也在阿!(17:11)
ool对gigix说: I wanna communicate you with XP(17:11)
zhaowenbin对gaoshmail说: 你对RUP或XP熟悉吗?(17:11)
eurekahyj对大家说: who is who ?(17:11)
huyaming对大家说: 我也觉得xp的想法不错,可是没有实践过。(17:11)
gigix对大家说: 偶使用XP的项目最后没有做完,放弃了(17:12)
gaoshmail对大家说: 对RUP当然熟悉了,但是XP接有点陌生了(17:12)
gigix对大家说: XP其实和RUP差不多:(17:12)
gaoshmail对大家说: gigix:为什么放弃(17:12)
zhaowenbin对大家说: 能和你通过MSN联系吗?(17:12)
gaoshmail对大家说: 差不多?不会吧(17:12)
gigix对大家说: 如果可以成功,用哪种方法都可以成功;反之用哪种方法都失败。(17:12)
huyaming对gaoshmail说: 不会吧(17:13)
myvrml对大家说: 其实理论和实践真的有很大差距(17:13)
gaoshmail对大家说: zhaowenbin:可以发电子邮件吧(17:13)
myvrml对大家说: 尤其中国(17:13)
gigix对大家说: 前次和朋友聊:软工就是蛋糕顶上那颗樱桃(17:13)
zhaowenbin对大家说: XP要求USE STORIES,而RUP要求USE CASE驱动(17:13)
myvrml对大家说: 老板不会管你用什么方法,能按时完成(17:13)
huyaming对gaoshmail说: 我觉得在中国,结合一点xp进行开发还是比较有效的。(17:13)
myvrml对大家说: 挣到钱就是好方法(17:13)
gaoshmail对大家说: zhaowenbin:你熟悉xp?(17:14)
zhaowenbin对大家说: GAOSHMAIL:能告诉我你的邮箱吗?(17:14)
eurekahyj对大家说: 其实现在把那种方法用好都不错了,关键是用户使用和要求的提高(17:14)
zhaowenbin对大家说: 不熟悉XP,对RUP有点研究,正在使用(17:14)
myvrml对大家说: 不过XP倡导人性化管理我觉得还是可以借鉴的(17:15)
gaoshmail对大家说: gigix:软件没有银弹(17:15)
gaoshmail对大家说: 银弹只是一个时期的幻想(17:15)
gigix对大家说: 未见得哦(17:16)
huyaming对gaoshmail说: 我同意你的说法。(17:16)
gaoshmail对大家说: myvrml:你的意思是rup没有人性化管理?(17:16)
zhaowenbin对大家说: 其实软件工程是个好东西,但是BOSS只考虑钱(17:16)
gigix对大家说: 也许会有,亦未可知(17:16)
eurekahyj对大家说: 大家不要说偏了(17:17)
myvrml对大家说: refactoring倡导持续集成,不断改代码,在现实中真的可以吗?(17:17)
gigix对大家说: 当然可以(17:17)
gaoshmail对大家说: gigix:但是现在还没出现(17:17)
zhaowenbin对大家说: 只要求尽快,用最少的人来完成,而不管是否现实(17:17)
gigix对大家说: 把排错的时间拿来写test case,把设计的时间拿来重构(17:17)
myvrml对大家说: RUP比较强调成员的螺丝钉精神(17:17)
gigix对大家说: 可惜,中国的软件企业,往往没有排错和设计的时间。(17:18)
myvrml对大家说: 透明说到点子上了(17:18)
gaoshmail对大家说: myvrml:不全是(17:18)
myvrml对大家说: 中国国情啊!!!!(17:18)
myvrml对大家说: 签个合同要2月,写代码最多3月,最后的验收要搞你半年(17:19)
gaoshmail对大家说: 其实从大的方面说,每一次设计都是一次重构(17:19)
gigix对大家说: 不能这样说(17:19)
gaoshmail对大家说: 为什么?(17:19)
zhaowenbin对大家说: 怎么说?(17:19)
myvrml对大家说: 谁还有心思搞什么软工(17:19)
gigix对大家说: 重构的定义应该严守,否则讨论就无意义了(17:19)
huyaming对myvrml说: 你好,你说得我深有体会(17:20)
gaoshmail对大家说: 呵呵,谢谢你的提醒,我差点把它扩大了(17:20)
myrontan对大家说: 其实XP,RUP等没有本质上的区别,关键在于是否有决心和恒心去实施(17:20)
huyaming对myvrml说: 我们现在的项目就这样。(17:20)
zhaowenbin对大家说: 软工很重要,这谁都知道,但真正落实就......(17:20)
gaoshmail对大家说: “重构的定义应该严守”,也不是所有的定义都要严守的(17:21)
huyaming对myvrml说: 可以请教一下,如何联系吗?(17:21)
myvrml对huyaming说: 应该说中国大部分的项目都是如此(17:21)
myvrml对huyaming说: 尤其和政府合作的(17:21)
gigix对大家说: 至少,重构必须保持被重构部分的外在行为不发生变化(17:21)
huyaming对myvrml说: 同台资企业的也如此。(17:21)
myvrml对huyaming说: 客气了,
huyaming对myvrml说: 可以问一下你的icq号或则msn吗?(17:22)
gaoshmail对大家说: 有的时候重构就是为了对付变化(17:22)
zhaowenbin对大家说: 软工其实也是个一把手工程!(17:22)
myvrml对huyaming说: 不过《refactring》这本书真的还是值得一看的(17:22)
myvrml对huyaming说: QQ:9401925(17:22)
zhaowenbin对大家说: 其实大家通过MSN联系很方便(17:22)
gigix对大家说: 想问一个问题:我们现在的软工是科学吗?(17:22)
myvrml对huyaming说: 第一章就让我很震撼(17:22)
gaoshmail对大家说: zhaowenbin:我公司用不了(17:23)
myrontan对大家说: 作为一个项目负责人或CTO,首要的任务是说服老板实施一个process(17:23)
eurekahyj对大家说: 其实大家都是在饭桌上就实现了软工(17:23)
zhaowenbin对大家说: GAOSHMAIL:可惜(17:23)
huyaming对myvrml说: 我的公司用不了qq,只能用msn或者icq(17:23)
gaoshmail对大家说: gigix:你说生产管理是科学吗?(17:23)
myvrml对大家说: 那就MSN吧
gigix对大家说: 不太熟悉生产管理(17:24)
gigix对大家说: 比较熟悉建筑,建筑是科学(17:24)
gaoshmail对大家说: 软工是一个还不成熟的科学(17:24)
huyaming对myvrml说: 谢谢。(17:24)
myvrml对大家说: 软工应该是科学,应该是应用科学(17:24)
gaoshmail对大家说: 太年轻(17:24)
zhaowenbin对大家说: 说服老板实施一个process?老板说同意呀,但项目必须在某某时间完成(实际是完不成的)(17:24)
gigix对大家说: 它只告诉我“这个项目为什么成功了”、“那个项目为什么失败了”(17:25)
myvrml对huyaming说: :)(17:25)
gigix对大家说: 有点像万金油科学(17:25)
myrontan对大家说: "软工应该是科学,应该是应用科学"我认为是一个工程管理学科(17:25)
gaoshmail对大家说: 目前来看,软工的定义缺乏科学的精确性(17:25)
zhaowenbin对大家说: 我们这儿一个项目根本就没有软件工程的概念(17:26)
myvrml对大家说: GIGIX:怎么市面上还没你的书卖?(17:26)
eurekahyj对大家说: 我不同意软工是科学的说法。软工至多只是一件装饰品而已(17:26)
gigix对大家说: 我的书还没出来,55555……(17:26)
myrontan对大家说: 一个软件项目与建筑项目没有任何区别(17:26)
zhougege对大家说: 我开发项目一直用严格按照软件工程的流程走的。(17:26)
myvrml对大家说: 原版的看了一半没看完(17:26)
gigix对大家说: 当然有区别啦。你能叫修好的桥旋转90度吗?(17:27)
zhougege对大家说: 不过测试过程不太严格。用户测试比较严格(17:27)
myvrml对大家说: 电子版的太累(17:27)
myrontan对大家说: PMP的学员中建筑业的比软件业的多(17:27)
myvrml对大家说: 想看你的纸板的(17:27)
gigix对大家说: 现在还等着,郁闷(17:27)
myrontan对大家说: 软工不是一件装饰品(17:27)
gaoshmail对大家说: 只能说软工的思想与建筑的思想是相通的(17:28)
myvrml对大家说: 我想软工这个东西空喊没有用,需要我们一起努力(17:28)
zhaowenbin对大家说: 对(17:28)
myrontan对大家说: NO,管理方法上也没有区别(17:28)
gigix对大家说: 我想,软工应该是一门科学(17:28)
myvrml对大家说: 大家想想,现在公司的老板一般多大了(17:28)
eurekahyj对大家说: myvrml的耐心令人敬佩(17:28)
zhaowenbin对大家说: 要顶着困难上(17:28)
gigix对大家说: 作为科学,它应该能对未来作出预测(17:29)
gigix对大家说: 应该可实验(17:29)
gigix对大家说: 并且应该可证伪(17:29)
gaoshmail对大家说: 请问RUP可以证伪吗?(17:29)
myvrml对大家说: 等再过10年,等我们当了老板?!(17:29)
myrontan对大家说: 千万别把软工当科学来研究(17:29)
zhaowenbin对大家说: 顺便问下:这里有多少是学软工出身的?(17:30)
gigix对大家说: RUP应该有一个限制条件:在某种情况下才能应用(17:30)
myrontan对大家说: 你没有这个时间和精力(17:30)
gigix对大家说: 如果没有这个限制条件,那它一定是伪科学(17:30)
huyaming对大家说: 我觉得研究,同项目不一样。(17:30)
myvrml对大家说: 呵呵,到时候软工估计就有出头之日了:)(17:30)
zhaowenbin对大家说: 或是系统分析员?(17:30)
huyaming对大家说: 我负责一个项目的开发。(17:30)
gaoshmail对大家说: 是啊,如果没有一个范围,没有一个精确的尺度,就不可能证伪(17:31)
zhaowenbin对大家说: HUYAMING:多大的项目(17:31)
myvrml对大家说: 其实我是建议大家看看经管或PM的书(17:31)
eurekahyj对大家说: 其实工程的东西都是比较粗糙的,因为涉及到了人为地因素,因而是不绝对可靠的。如果有一天软功在中国成了科学的话,大概中国的计算机水平也就不一般了,信息社会也就实现了(17:31)
gigix对大家说: 所以现在需要的工作是:(17:31)
gigix对大家说: 缩小约束范围(17:31)
myrontan对大家说: 软件业的幼稚表现在缺乏适合于本企业的process(17:31)
gigix对大家说: 建立软件度量标准(17:31)