UMLChina第18期专家交流实录

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gigix对大家说: 偶来了(2002/04/30 09:20)
gigix对大家说: 今天仍由偶来主持(2002/04/30 09:20)
chuqingsheng对大家说: 中译本哪有啊？(2002/04/30 09:21)
gigix对大家说: 中译本我这里有。(2002/04/30 09:21)
chuqingsheng对umlchina说: 英文版现在有吗？(2002/04/30 09:21)
outmyth进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:21)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 能发一份给我吗？(2002/04/30 09:21)
gigix对大家说: 英文版有一些公开的，http://www.netobjectives.com(2002/04/30 09:21)
gigix对大家说: 中译本也有部分章节公开，http://gigix.cool2u.net(2002/04/30 09:22)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 公开的太少了，我倒是读过设计模式但精解没有，(2002/04/30 09:22)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 哦，谢谢你，(2002/04/30 09:23)
gigix对chuqingsheng说: 公开太多出版社就不干了，呵呵(2002/04/30 09:23)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 点空间更新也很慢，(2002/04/30 09:23)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 那倒是，(2002/04/30 09:24)
outmyth对大家说: 请问gigix先生有没有计划进行一些关于设计模式的培训或沙龙之类的想法(2002/04/30 09:26)
flyingsaucer微笑着对大家说: when is the chatting supposed to start?(2002/04/30 09:26)
gigix对outmyth说: 呵呵，有想法，没实践。(2002/04/30 09:27)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 打不开，你的主页里的有些内容(2002/04/30 09:27)
gigix对大家说: 现在UMLCHINA去找今天的主角了，等他过来就开始。(2002/04/30 09:27)
flyingsaucer微笑着对大家说: ic, thanks(2002/04/30 09:28)
china_hunter进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:28)
shenqw进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:28)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 就是部分章节的PDF(2002/04/30 09:29)
gigix对chuqingsheng说: 具体哪个？我去查。(2002/04/30 09:29)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 第一章 ：面向对象范式(2002/04/30 09:30)
sinba72进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:30)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 前言(2002/04/30 09:30)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 第五章：对于设计模式的介绍(2002/04/30 09:30)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 都不行(2002/04/30 09:30)
sinba72进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:30)
shi_hang_nk对大家说: hello(2002/04/30 09:31)
shenqw对gigix说: 可以介绍介绍书的精华吗？(2002/04/30 09:31)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 能介绍一个这本书的精髓吗？(2002/04/30 09:31)
gigix对chuqingsheng说: 谢谢！找到毛病了。(2002/04/30 09:31)
gigix对chuqingsheng说: 这本书不是“模式列表”，而是告诉读者：模式是怎样产生出来的。(2002/04/30 09:32)
gigix对chuqingsheng说: 也可以说，它教给读者正确的思维方式。(2002/04/30 09:32)
china_hunter对gigix说: 刚开始看，能给点儿指导么？(2002/04/30 09:33)
sunwangme进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:33)
shi_hang_nk微笑着对大家说: hello,everyone!(2002/04/30 09:33)
gigix对chuqingsheng说: 我的主页改过了，刷新一下看看。(2002/04/30 09:34)
gigix对china_hunter说: 不该由我来指导，应该由作者Alan Shalloway来指导。我也从这本书受益很多。(2002/04/30 09:34)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: OK了，(2002/04/30 09:34)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 模式我倒是读过了，不知读过这一本会如何？(2002/04/30 09:35)
sunwangme对大家说: hi,good morning to all.(2002/04/30 09:35)
china_hunter对gigix说: 有道理，看来想走捷径，本身就是态度不对！(2002/04/30 09:36)
china_hunter对gigix说: 态度决定一切 :0(2002/04/30 09:36)
sunwangme对大家说: Agree to China_hunter.(2002/04/30 09:37)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 我想知道这本书的真正的能起什么作用？是一个补充还是。。。。？(2002/04/30 09:37)
gigix对chuqingsheng说: 应该是深入的理解。(2002/04/30 09:38)
solofeng进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:38)
outmyth对大家说: 请问gigix这本书出版的日期还没有定下来吗（出版社方面的）(2002/04/30 09:38)
gigix对outmyth说: 我都不知道了，不敢再多催，我怕编辑生气。(2002/04/30 09:38)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 哦，就是说使你更深层次地领悟她。(2002/04/30 09:39)
gigix对outmyth说: 是这样。明白模式的来龙去脉。(2002/04/30 09:39)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 其实我一真也在找这样的书。(2002/04/30 09:39)
kt133进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:40)
gigix对chuqingsheng说: 最近Joshua Kerievsky在SDMAGAZINE上发表了一篇文章，就说到：简单套用模式很容易造成过分设计。(2002/04/30 09:40)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 早就有耳闻了，可没有机会见到。(2002/04/30 09:40)
gigix对chuqingsheng说: 所以，不管用不用模式，都必须知道“为什么”。(2002/04/30 09:40)
duanyi进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:40)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 是的，我明白，不能就模式而模式。(2002/04/30 09:40)
sunwangme对大家说: How slow to fresh!!(2002/04/30 09:41)
flyingsaucer微笑着对大家说: Actually, Bruce Eckel's Thinking in Patterns is a very good read too(2002/04/30 09:41)
gigix对flyingsaucer说: 没看过TIP，遗憾……(2002/04/30 09:41)
china_hunter对大家说: is pai pai here?(2002/04/30 09:41)
shi_hang_nk进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:41)
shi_hang_nk进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:42)
outmyth对大家说: think in pattern 真的很好吗(2002/04/30 09:42)
chuqingsheng对flyingsaucer说: 哪里有啊？(2002/04/30 09:42)
zhaoj123进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:42)
flyingsaucer微笑着对大家说: http://www.mindview.net/Books/TIPatterns/(2002/04/30 09:44)
davidqql进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:44)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 能很自然地用模式，拓展她就很不容易了(2002/04/30 09:44)
gigix对chuqingsheng说: 用一句很俗的话来说，叫做“心中无模式”。(2002/04/30 09:45)
zhaoj123对大家说: 套用模式是不是很容易导致程序效率不高(2002/04/30 09:45)
andyluan进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:45)
pplove.shao进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:46)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 哈哈，是的是的，真是手中有剑，心中无剑(2002/04/30 09:47)
chuqingsheng对gigix说: 最后是，手中无剑，心中也无剑了，(2002/04/30 09:47)
gigix对zhaoj123说: 每个模式都有它适用的场合，叫做“约束”和“场景”(2002/04/30 09:47)
gigix对zhaoj123说: 如果不理会这些，简单地套用书上的模式，肯定会和自己的情景不搭调，于是……(2002/04/30 09:48)
flyingsaucer微笑着对大家说: 场景 == context?(2002/04/30 09:48)
leohoo进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:48)
davidqql对大家说: 使用模式是否会束缚大家的创造力？(2002/04/30 09:49)
gigix对zhaoj123说: 正确的做法：理解模式的来源，充分掌握设计技术，大胆重构。(2002/04/30 09:49)
zhaoj123对gigix说: 我总觉得固定的格式可能容易使得程序扩展性提高，但每个程序都有各自的特点，因此模式只能用来参考，提高效率应该有各自的改造(2002/04/30 09:49)
gigix对zhaoj123说: 对的(2002/04/30 09:49)
foolsgarden进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:50)
julias进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:50)
davidqql对大家说: 因此，我认为，生搬硬套模式没有意义，更应该学习的是针对模式的思想(2002/04/30 09:50)
higoals进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:50)
rogerle进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:50)
瘦驼进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:50)
pplove.shao对gigix说: 看设计模式真的可以在两个月时间后程序设计能力提高一倍？(2002/04/30 09:51)
rogerle对pplove.shao说: 胡说(2002/04/30 09:51)
gigix对pplove.shao说: 我说过这种话吗？(2002/04/30 09:51)
shalloway进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:52)
pplove.shao对gigix说: 是你说的阿！(2002/04/30 09:52)
xcdlyjx进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:52)
gigix对pplove.shao说: 我是说“让我的编程能力提高了一个档次”，呵呵。(2002/04/30 09:52)
重粒子进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:52)
rogerle对umlchina说: 什么时候开始阿(2002/04/30 09:52)
xuleisoft进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:53)
gigix对pplove.shao说: 因为以前就对OOD有些想法，看了DP以后有种开悟的感觉。(2002/04/30 09:53)
flyingsaucer微笑着对大家说: 编程能力? not 设计能力?(2002/04/30 09:53)
rogerle进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:53)
umlchina对shalloway说: welcomw(2002/04/30 09:53)
ejiang进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:54)
shalloway对大家说: hi(2002/04/30 09:54)
umlchina对shalloway说: welcome mr. shalloway(2002/04/30 09:54)
nju进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:55)
gigix对shalloway说: Hello, Alan. I'm Gigix(2002/04/30 09:55)
shalloway对大家说: glad to be here(2002/04/30 09:55)
xing_xsz进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:55)
foolsgarden对大家说: shalloway,welcome!(2002/04/30 09:55)
alink进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:55)
shalloway对大家说: hi gigix. glad you are here(2002/04/30 09:55)
rogerle对大家说: welcome(2002/04/30 09:56)
qfkfw对shalloway说: Welcome shalloway(2002/04/30 09:56)
gigix对shalloway说: How are you these days?(2002/04/30 09:56)
julias对大家说: hi, everyone.慕名而来。(2002/04/30 09:56)
xing_xsz对大家说: hi(2002/04/30 09:57)
agilemind进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:57)
gigix对shalloway说: I'm the compere of today. Lots of Chinese developers are waiting for the book DPE.(2002/04/30 09:58)
Charity_Zhou进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:58)
umlchina对大家说: 字体颜色：提问及参与讨论：草原之蓝,嘉宾回答和主持人发言：正宗喜红,互相说话：绝对黑色 ,无论是提问，还是互相说话，请用英语(2002/04/30 09:59)
shalloway对大家说: I'll make sure our webmaster gets it to you within the next few days. Have you already gone to press?(2002/04/30 09:59)
landcast进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:59)
rogerle进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 09:59)
afangpeng进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:00)
julias对大家说: hello, gigix. nice to meet you.(2002/04/30 10:00)
shalloway对大家说: glad to be here(2002/04/30 10:01)
gigix对shalloway说: It seems that you are turning to a XPer, right? Which methodology you prefer now?(2002/04/30 10:01)
重粒子对shalloway说: how do you do,nice to meet you(2002/04/30 10:01)
duanyi进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:02)
julias对大家说: slow chatroom.(2002/04/30 10:02)
outmyth对大家说: shalloway,nice tomeet u(2002/04/30 10:02)
fimp进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:04)
shalloway对大家说: SCRUM has a lot of good ideas in it as well.(2002/04/30 10:05)
nju对大家说: hihi(2002/04/30 10:05)
landcast进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:05)
higoals进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:07)
julias对大家说: shalloway, i have read the sample of your book,it seems very good, i feel(2002/04/30 10:07)
higoals进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:07)
higoals进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:07)
higoals进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:08)
Charity_Zhou对shalloway说: how do u think of the reusable and the complexity?(2002/04/30 10:08)
jnaunt进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:08)
foolsgarden进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:08)
foolsgarden对大家说: why not start?(2002/04/30 10:08)
ishallwin进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:09)
ishallwin对大家说: Did he come?(2002/04/30 10:09)
flyingsaucer对大家说: maybe this is not related, Mr. Shalloway, what do you think about AOP (aspect-oriented programming), what is its future?(2002/04/30 10:10)
xing_xsz离开了聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:10)
jnaunt进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:10)
ismaila2001进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:10)
fimp进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:10)
sinba72对大家说: Could you recommend me a good UML book? I am a jackaroo of UML.(2002/04/30 10:11)
china_hunter进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:12)
china_hunter进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:12)
rogerle离开了聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:12)
斜阳草树进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:12)
^0^-C++进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:12)
crystal_y进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:12)
Charity_Zhou对大家说: Why so slowly?(2002/04/30 10:13)
china_hunter进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:13)
gigix对shalloway说: Then do you still like pattern matrix?(2002/04/30 10:13)
umlchina对大家说: 大家等一下(2002/04/30 10:13)
umlchina对大家说: 服务器刚才出现问题(2002/04/30 10:13)
jnaunt微笑着对大家说: why not begin?(2002/04/30 10:14)
xiexiao进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:14)
smilingleo进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:14)
agilewang进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:14)
shalloway对大家说: gigix: I am reworking the pattern matrix. It could be expanded quite a bit.(2002/04/30 10:14)
ginn进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:14)
andyluan进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:15)
sinba72对大家说: Only questions, no answers?(2002/04/30 10:15)
cornflower进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:15)
shalloway对大家说: i wrote some other answers but I think they may have been lost - i'll resend them.(2002/04/30 10:15)
shalloway对大家说: Re AOP, i have not studied it. However, people who i respect have said it is a good idea.(2002/04/30 10:15)
shalloway对大家说: I would like to get to learn more about it when I have time :)(2002/04/30 10:15)
simaetin进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:15)
loulan2000进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:15)
邑水寒进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:15)
nju进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:16)
shalloway对大家说: a good uml book is fowler's UML distilled.(2002/04/30 10:16)
kt133进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:16)
shalloway对大家说: We seem to be moving now.(2002/04/30 10:16)
ginn对大家说: ??(2002/04/30 10:16)
shalloway对大家说: I will reanswer the question about complexity and reusability again(2002/04/30 10:16)
shalloway对大家说: one of the problems in object-oriented design is that it was first put forth as a way to get reusable code(2002/04/30 10:16)
shalloway对大家说: that's not a bad idea, but the way we were told to do this was to take a class that pretty much(2002/04/30 10:17)
agilemind对shalloway说: hi,Mr. shalloway,Nice to meet u:)(2002/04/30 10:17)
shalloway对大家说: did what we wanted and then derive a specialized version that overrode the methods we needed to change.(2002/04/30 10:17)
shalloway对大家说: the problem with this is that it leads to coupling between unrelated concepts.(2002/04/30 10:17)
shalloway对大家说: For example, if you are building a sales order and use inheritance to specialize for nationalization (tax, freight)(2002/04/30 10:18)
foolsgarden进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:18)
foolsgarden对大家说: ??(2002/04/30 10:18)
loulan2000对大家说: Can OOA/OOD used to a stuctrual language,such as asp?(2002/04/30 10:18)
shalloway对大家说: then you have coupled tax and freight. this might work for a while, but eventually it doesn't. It makes(2002/04/30 10:18)
flyingsaucer对大家说: thank you, Allan, sorry, this server is so slow, :-)(2002/04/30 10:18)
gigix对shalloway说: How do you think about pattern matrix now? Is it good to use pattern matrix to design up-front?(2002/04/30 10:18)
shalloway对大家说: things very difficult to understand.(2002/04/30 10:18)
ginn对大家说: nice to meet u, foolsgarden(2002/04/30 10:18)
shalloway对大家说: When programming, we need to pay attention to loose coupling (to avoid sideaffects),(2002/04/30 10:18)
shalloway对大家说: high cohesion (for clarity) and no redundancy - for efficiency.(2002/04/30 10:18)
shalloway对大家说: I think we manage complexity by having things vary live in their own space -- behind an interface or abstract class(2002/04/30 10:19)
ismaila2001进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:18)
sandy_wu进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:18)
loulan2000对大家说: Can OOA/OOD used to guide the structural language,such as ASP?(2002/04/30 10:19)
shalloway对大家说: when you find something in the problem domain, ask yourself -(2002/04/30 10:19)
shalloway对大家说: is this a specific way to do something or a general way to classify something(2002/04/30 10:19)
qfkfw进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:19)
shalloway对大家说: that is, us Tax is a specific way to do the generalization of tax.(2002/04/30 10:19)
xlp223进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:20)
foolsgarden进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:20)
shalloway对大家说: The Design patterns book (gamma's et al) tells us to find what varies and encapsulate it. That is,(2002/04/30 10:20)
xuleisoft进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:20)
loulan2000对大家说: I want to use OOA/OOD, but the language is structural(2002/04/30 10:20)
shalloway对大家说: find the generalization, define an interface for it and then refer to that interface, implementing the specific ways to tod it.(2002/04/30 10:20)
agilemind对shalloway说: Can u tell me what's the real value of the fine-grained loose-coupled design pattern.Martin fowler once said he only care the circle of dependence of high level module:)(2002/04/30 10:20)
shalloway对大家说: Re the pattern matrix: That is a good way to learn patterns. I think it is important to be able to compare and contrast patterns.(2002/04/30 10:21)
shalloway对大家说: The pattern matrix is a work in progress.(2002/04/30 10:21)
ejiang离开了聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:21)
sunwangme进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:21)
shalloway对大家说: implemented in a structural language.(2002/04/30 10:22)
outmyth进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:22)
shalloway对大家说: i think a combination of up-front design and emergent design should be used.(2002/04/30 10:22)
xuleisoft离开了聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:22)
shalloway对大家说: when you are very familiar with a problem domain, you can sometimes design it up-front to some extent.(2002/04/30 10:22)
shalloway对大家说: This is never done too much however. We don't want to implement or design more than we need to.(2002/04/30 10:22)
agilewang对shalloway说: how do u implement simple design in xp or agile method?(2002/04/30 10:23)
shalloway对大家说: However, I do believe in the XP practice of simplicity. Don't build something until you need it.(2002/04/30 10:23)
shalloway对大家说: 1) up - front testing (and automated)(2002/04/30 10:23)
gigix对shalloway说: I think pattern matrix is conflict with agile methodologies, is it?(2002/04/30 10:23)
rogerle进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:23)
shalloway对大家说: 2) really follow the practices of loose coupling, high cohesion, no redundancy and coding by intention.(2002/04/30 10:23)
shalloway对大家说: Gigix: why do you think the pattern matrix is in conflict with agile methods?(2002/04/30 10:24)
ishallwin离开了聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:24)
shalloway对大家说: AgileMind: I agree with Martin on this. Loose-coupling allows for things to vary without causing side effects or causing lots of code changes.(2002/04/30 10:25)
gigix对shalloway说: Because it calls for design up-front using patterns.(2002/04/30 10:25)
shalloway对大家说: let's be clear here. XP may say not to do any up-front design, but agile methodologies in general do not(2002/04/30 10:25)
shalloway对大家说: agile methods are based on developing software iteratively, building at least daily,(2002/04/30 10:26)
shalloway对大家说: getting customer feedback often, valuing people over process(2002/04/30 10:26)
ssjava进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:26)
shalloway对大家说: automated testing, refactoring as needed.(2002/04/30 10:26)
shalloway对大家说: The practices of no design up-front and paired programming are XP practices, not agile practices(2002/04/30 10:26)
nju进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:27)
shalloway对大家说: I don't believe in using patterns to overbuild. In other words, don't just apply a pattern because you think it exists.(2002/04/30 10:27)
szm#zyy进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:27)
Charity_Zhou进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:27)
xlp223对大家说: do you think which pattern the newer start study from?(2002/04/30 10:27)
flyingsaucer对大家说: people say XP is for experienced developers, not for novice developers, what do you think? Alan(2002/04/30 10:28)
chuqingsheng进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:28)
elias进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:28)
agilemind对shalloway说: Thank u very much,can u introduce any patterns of coarse-grained patterns to us?:)(2002/04/30 10:29)
gigix对shalloway说: Do you know that Joshua Kerievsky write an article in SDMagazine?(2002/04/30 10:29)
xuyunxi进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:29)
kt133进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:29)
kt133对大家说: Are there Any Patten besides the crational,structural and behavioral patten ?(2002/04/30 10:29)
raofuhua进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:29)
leohoo对大家说: Alan, what are the differences between xp and agile methods?(2002/04/30 10:30)
ginn进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:30)
ginn对大家说: silenced?(2002/04/30 10:30)
umlchina离开了聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:30)
simaetin进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:30)
simaetin对大家说: anything wrong?(2002/04/30 10:30)
umlchina进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:30)
gigix对shalloway说: He think that patterns bring on over-engineering. How do you think about it?(2002/04/30 10:31)
outmyth对大家说: ..(2002/04/30 10:31)
rogerle对shalloway说: Is it resonable applied the design pattern to a Web Application?(2002/04/30 10:31)
shalloway对大家说: sorry my page wasn't updating. I'll try to answer your questions now(2002/04/30 10:31)
wyse进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:31)
umlchina对大家说: pleaese refresh!!(2002/04/30 10:31)
no24进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:32)
umlchina对大家说: refresh again, and everything will be ok(2002/04/30 10:32)
leohoo对大家说: Alan, what are the differences between xp and agile methods?(2002/04/30 10:32)
gigix对shalloway说: Please select RED(2002/04/30 10:32)
flying_cheng进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:32)
shalloway对大家说: the patterns to start with are: Strategy, abstract factory, composite, bridge(2002/04/30 10:32)
flyingsaucer对大家说: suggest UMLCHINA do not hold this kind of chats on smiling.com.cn in the future, their server is too slow(2002/04/30 10:32)
ginn对大家说: hehe, if somebody didn't refresh, how can he see your command?(2002/04/30 10:32)
Haides进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:32)
shalloway对大家说: factory method, proxy, decorator, observer, iterator, adapter, facade and template method(2002/04/30 10:32)
outmyth对大家说: ''(2002/04/30 10:33)
shalloway对大家说: even if you don't design from them, this collection of patterns contain important concepts that devlopers need to know.(2002/04/30 10:33)
rogerle对shalloway说: How can we do when reengineering a product?(2002/04/30 10:34)
crystal_y离开了聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:34)
shalloway对大家说: i'm having a problem here, please wait one minute without any more questions(2002/04/30 10:34)
wyse对大家说: .(2002/04/30 10:35)
crystal_y进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:35)
yinhj进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:36)
leohoo对gigix说: gigix, can u tell me the difference between xp and agile method?(2002/04/30 10:36)
cocia进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:36)
go_my_smark进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:36)
flyingsaucer离开了聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:36)
shalloway对大家说: i'll go back and answer the questions i missed in a minute, but first i'll answer xp and agile(2002/04/30 10:37)
shalloway对大家说: xp is a particular agile process(2002/04/30 10:37)
shalloway对大家说: it has four values: courage, simplicity, honesty and communication(2002/04/30 10:37)
shalloway对大家说: it has 12 practices. it is a particular way of doing agile development.(2002/04/30 10:37)
shalloway对大家说: there are other particular ways: SCRUM is a good one.(2002/04/30 10:37)
shalloway对大家说: You can even do RUP in an agile way.(2002/04/30 10:37)
小包车进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:38)
shalloway对大家说: Agile is an approach. It says you can't possibly know all of your requirements(2002/04/30 10:38)
simaetin对shalloway说: honesty? or feedback(2002/04/30 10:38)
shalloway对大家说: starting out. At least not in many projects. If your project allows you to know the requirements up front,(2002/04/30 10:38)
shalloway对大家说: you don't need agile. Honesty is the value. Feedback is something you need to get.(2002/04/30 10:38)
shalloway对大家说: All agile methods are geared towards getting feedback. It's why(2002/04/30 10:38)
shalloway对大家说: you do as little up front as you can. The less you do upfront the quicker you(2002/04/30 10:39)
shalloway对大家说: will be able to show the customer something and then get feedback.(2002/04/30 10:39)
xlp223对大家说: if say it is difficult to ensure the design is good for problem domain,then how can you ensure design pattern is good for problem domain?(2002/04/30 10:39)
shalloway对大家说: Of course, the values of XP are probably valued by everyone.(2002/04/30 10:39)
shalloway对大家说: you don't try to apply design patterns to a problem domain until you have seen that what is going on(2002/04/30 10:39)
shalloway对大家说: in the problem domain is the same thing that the pattern explains.(2002/04/30 10:39)
flying_cheng离开了聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:40)
shalloway对大家说: this is how patterns are most often mis-used. People say - where are my strategies?(2002/04/30 10:40)
shalloway对大家说: That's like having a hammer and looking for a nail to put in the wall.(2002/04/30 10:40)
shalloway对大家说: patterns are really about relationships between things.(2002/04/30 10:40)
foolsgarden进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:41)
shalloway对大家说: For example, a strategy pattern is about the relationship betwen something(2002/04/30 10:41)
kt133进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:41)
kt133对大家说: How to reOrganised the Xp Project into a better mannaged Way?(2002/04/30 10:41)
shalloway对大家说: that has the potential to use many different rules(2002/04/30 10:42)
shalloway对大家说: which one it is using.(2002/04/30 10:42)
go_my_smark对shalloway说: how much differelity form ooA to OOd(2002/04/30 10:42)
merven进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:42)
shalloway对大家说: Patterns teach us a new way of looking at our problem domain.(2002/04/30 10:42)
shalloway对大家说: Personally, I'm not sure I"d start with XP.(2002/04/30 10:43)
shalloway对大家说: I'd start with good practices like:(2002/04/30 10:43)
shalloway对大家说: up-front automated testing.(2002/04/30 10:43)
shalloway对大家说: daily builds(2002/04/30 10:43)
shalloway对大家说: iterative cycles(2002/04/30 10:43)
shalloway对大家说: scrum would probably be easier to implement(2002/04/30 10:43)
shalloway对大家说: However, if you like to do paired programming - go for it.(2002/04/30 10:44)
shalloway对大家说: I think it is great. but many software cultures don't like it.(2002/04/30 10:44)
shalloway对大家说: This may be more of a problem out here in the US where we have(2002/04/30 10:44)
shalloway对大家说: this cowboy mentality.(2002/04/30 10:44)
shalloway对大家说: I'd be interesting in comments about what you all think about paring while(2002/04/30 10:44)
shalloway对大家说: i answer some earlier questions that i missed.(2002/04/30 10:44)
shalloway对大家说: patterns to start with are:(2002/04/30 10:45)
shalloway对大家说: Strategy, Abstract Factory, Composite, Bridge, Factory Method(2002/04/30 10:45)
shalloway对大家说: Proxy, Decorator, Observer, Iterator, Adapter, Facade, Template Method, Singleton(2002/04/30 10:46)
shalloway对大家说: re people say XP is for experienced developers.(2002/04/30 10:46)
shalloway对大家说: I think you need some senior people on an XP project. However, any project(2002/04/30 10:47)
shalloway对大家说: without senior (experienced) people is going to be in trouble.(2002/04/30 10:47)
shalloway对大家说: I think continous refactoring can get pretty hairy, however, if people on the project(2002/04/30 10:47)
merven对大家说: i want to ask a question about UseCase.(2002/04/30 10:47)
shalloway对大家说: don't code well. Hwoever, with XP, you at least only need half of them to know what they(2002/04/30 10:47)
xlp223对大家说: but someone recommend the other order,what should i do ?(2002/04/30 10:47)
shalloway对大家说: are doing. the others can watch and learn.(2002/04/30 10:47)
gigix对shalloway说: I think that OOD principles( such as OCP) are more important than concrete patterns, right?(2002/04/30 10:47)
shalloway对大家说: xpl223: what order was recommended?(2002/04/30 10:48)
gigix对shalloway说: In the book DPE, you express the same idea.(2002/04/30 10:48)
shalloway对大家说: i'm not sure you have to learn them in the order i suggested.(2002/04/30 10:48)
shalloway对大家说: Definitely learn strategy first.(2002/04/30 10:48)
shalloway对大家说: gigix: I agree that OOD principles are more important than concrete patterns.(2002/04/30 10:48)
shalloway对大家说: actually xp would say don't worry about OCP (open-closed principle) anyway.(2002/04/30 10:49)
shalloway对大家说: practices and good OOD principles.(2002/04/30 10:49)
xlp223对大家说: for example,begin with singleton.(2002/04/30 10:49)
shalloway对大家说: However, I believe he still thinks about design patterns more as a solution to a problem.(2002/04/30 10:49)
gigix对shalloway说: Why? Without OCP, how to ensure the quality of code?(2002/04/30 10:49)
go_my_smark对大家说: but My speed is very slow,and I have to refresh it on time(2002/04/30 10:50)
shalloway对大家说: i think about them more as relationships in our problem domain.(2002/04/30 10:50)
xlp223对大家说: the order to study patterns.(2002/04/30 10:50)
shalloway对大家说: gigix: you really can't write code that you don't change (the goal of OCP).(2002/04/30 10:50)
shalloway对大家说: But ask yourself, why do you want to avoid changing code? (lot's of good reasons).(2002/04/30 10:50)
shalloway对大家说: Most code is fragile - if I have to change something, i will break it somewhere else.(2002/04/30 10:50)
xlp223对大家说: sorry,i say the order is to study patterns.(2002/04/30 10:50)
shalloway对大家说: You can avoid this by having loosely coupled code in the first place so you can m(2002/04/30 10:50)
shalloway对大家说: make changes without breaking things.(2002/04/30 10:51)
shalloway对大家说: Another reason is that if I change something i have to retest things.(2002/04/30 10:51)
shalloway对大家说: However, if you are doing automated, up-front testing, then testing your system(2002/04/30 10:51)
shalloway对大家说: isn't too expensive to do.(2002/04/30 10:51)
shalloway对大家说: The real myth in software is that we spend a lot of time fixing bugs.(2002/04/30 10:51)
shalloway对大家说: Right? how many of you thiknk you spend a lot of time fixing bugs?(2002/04/30 10:51)
shalloway对大家说: I bet most of you don't.(2002/04/30 10:52)
gigix对shalloway说: right.(2002/04/30 10:52)
shalloway对大家说: Think about your worst problem. your worst bug.(2002/04/30 10:52)
shalloway对大家说: Now, think about how much time you spent looking at the code(2002/04/30 10:52)
shalloway对大家说: to find out what was going on?(2002/04/30 10:52)
gigix对shalloway说: .....(2002/04/30 10:52)
shalloway对大家说: How much of this time could have been saved if the code was well written(2002/04/30 10:52)
gigix对shalloway说: How about you?(2002/04/30 10:52)
shalloway对大家说: how much more if it were loosely coupled?(2002/04/30 10:52)
shalloway对大家说: Anyway, all of this investigation is not fixing anyway.(2002/04/30 10:53)
outmyth对大家说: i do!(2002/04/30 10:53)
shalloway对大家说: Fixing the bug takes relatively little time. The discovery could take quite some time.(2002/04/30 10:53)
gigix对shalloway说: agree(2002/04/30 10:53)
mj.cai进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:53)
shalloway对大家说: I have an interesting coding life.(2002/04/30 10:53)
gigix对shalloway说: And so?(2002/04/30 10:53)
shalloway对大家说: I spend about 1/2 my coding time (represents about 10% of my overall time) working on(2002/04/30 10:53)
shalloway对大家说: a system I wrote in the 80s. It was before i really learned good coding.(2002/04/30 10:54)
shalloway对大家说: I get to see examples of coupling and poor cohesion all of the time.(2002/04/30 10:54)
shalloway对大家说: good practices.(2002/04/30 10:54)
gigix对shalloway说: So it's hard to maintain.(2002/04/30 10:54)
shalloway对大家说: gigix: not sure what you meant by and so?(2002/04/30 10:54)
dboy_zhu进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:54)
no24离开了聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:55)
shalloway对大家说: Oh, I see. Well it's hard to maintain IF you have poor cohesion(2002/04/30 10:55)
bing_ling进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:55)
龙在江湖进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:55)
shalloway对大家说: and tight coupling. and little testing.(2002/04/30 10:55)
gigix对shalloway说: hehe, poor...(2002/04/30 10:55)
shalloway对大家说: it's not that hard to make changes - unless a lot of people are(2002/04/30 10:55)
shalloway对大家说: using your code.(2002/04/30 10:55)
no24进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:55)
shalloway对大家说: This is why XP doesn't work all of the time.(2002/04/30 10:55)
cber进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:55)
shalloway对大家说: for changing interfaces.(2002/04/30 10:55)
shalloway对大家说: kt133: are there any patterns besides the creational, structural and behavioral patterns.(2002/04/30 10:56)
shalloway对大家说: I don't really like classifying patterns like this.(2002/04/30 10:56)
xlp223对大家说: but someone recommend the other order to study patterns,what should i do ?((2002/04/30 10:56)
shalloway对大家说: If i were to do it, however, I'd add: decoupling patterns - observer, chain of responsibility, mediator(2002/04/30 10:56)
gigix对shalloway说: But if code is write for yourself, you don't need any method.(2002/04/30 10:57)
shalloway对大家说: i know gamma et al call them something else.(2002/04/30 10:57)
agilemind进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:57)
agilemind对shalloway说: Can u tell me any relationships and differences between fine-grained patterns and coarse-grained patterns?(2002/04/30 10:57)
kt133进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 10:57)
kt133对大家说: I think maybe ,but not sure which.(2002/04/30 10:57)
shalloway对大家说: patterns have many characteristics. in the real world these don't show up(2002/04/30 10:57)
shalloway对大家说: as neatly as they do in books.(2002/04/30 10:57)
gigix对shalloway说: Oh, I like your classify. They are decoupling indeed.(2002/04/30 10:57)
shalloway对大家说: xlp223 - please send me the order you were recommended to learn in.(2002/04/30 10:57)
shalloway对大家说: i will think about order later and e-mail you it.(2002/04/30 10:58)
shalloway对大家说: agilemind: can you give me a particular fine-grained pattern and coarse-grained pattern you have in mind.(2002/04/30 10:58)
gigix对shalloway说: Another question: in OOD, which principles is the most important?(2002/04/30 10:59)
shalloway对大家说: gigix: even if you write code for yourself, the code becomes too complicated(2002/04/30 10:59)
shalloway对大家说: if you don't pay attention to coupling, cohesion and redundancy issues.(2002/04/30 10:59)
outmyth对大家说: but ,how can i manage it?(2002/04/30 10:59)
shalloway对大家说: i can't say _which_ prinicple is most important. but here's a list of very important ones(2002/04/30 10:59)
xlp223对大家说: for c++ programmer, Iterator : Adapter : Bridge : Strategy(2002/04/30 11:00)
agilemind对shalloway说: sorry,i only know that GOF patterns are fine-grained,and layered patterns are coarse-grained:)(2002/04/30 11:00)
shalloway对大家说: outmyth: don't understand your question?(2002/04/30 11:00)
gigix对shalloway说: What's that?(2002/04/30 11:00)
shalloway对大家说: think of objects as things with well-defined resopnsibilities.(2002/04/30 11:00)
shalloway对大家说: objects should be resonsible for themselves(2002/04/30 11:00)
shalloway对大家说: encapsulation is any kind of hiding; data, implemetnation, classes(2002/04/30 11:00)
shalloway对大家说: try to have things be explicitly coupled (loose coupling) to each other(2002/04/30 11:00)
gigix对shalloway说: Yes, you said that in the book DPE as well.(2002/04/30 11:01)
shalloway对大家说: have methods do one thing(2002/04/30 11:01)
shalloway对大家说: have classes only contain related methods(2002/04/30 11:01)
outmyth对大家说: how can i manage to low coupling....?(2002/04/30 11:01)
shalloway对大家说: avoid redundancy at all costs(2002/04/30 11:01)
no24进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:01)
xlp223对大家说: for java programmer,the order is Decorator : Observer : Composite?(2002/04/30 11:01)
shalloway对大家说: outmyth: low coupling means to define your interfaces in such a wya(2002/04/30 11:01)
shalloway对大家说: that calling objects can send all of the information the service object needs.(2002/04/30 11:01)
shalloway对大家说: private data methods is one way of helping out.(2002/04/30 11:02)
ismaila2001进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:02)
shalloway对大家说: xlp223: i'd definitely start with strategy. then decorator, observer, composite are not bad ones to follow(2002/04/30 11:02)
shalloway对大家说: just because java doesn't use strategy doesn't mean don't start with it.(2002/04/30 11:02)
crystal_y对shalloway说: abstraction, commonality, variablity analysis, is that core for get loosely coupling?(2002/04/30 11:02)
shalloway对大家说: it's an easy pattern to learn.(2002/04/30 11:02)
outmyth对大家说: thanks,is your book available in China?(2002/04/30 11:02)
nju进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:03)
shalloway对大家说: crystal: abstraction... will help you see the problem domain in a better way.(2002/04/30 11:03)
shalloway对大家说: if you program to these, you have many fewer things to deal with.(2002/04/30 11:03)
shalloway对大家说: the variations of these things only need worry about the interface you(2002/04/30 11:03)
shalloway对大家说: used to represent them. That is, if you identify tax as something you need(2002/04/30 11:03)
shalloway对大家说: to handle, you don't have to worry about the particular kinds of tax - just the tax interface(2002/04/30 11:04)
agilemind对shalloway说: sorry,i only know that GOF patterns are fine-grained,and layered patterns are coarse-grained:)(2002/04/30 11:04)
shalloway对大家说: then, when implementing particular tax rules, use the tax interface.(2002/04/30 11:04)
shalloway对大家说: outmyth: my book isn't available yet, but I understand it will be in a few(2002/04/30 11:04)
shalloway对大家说: months. After this talk, you can continue to ask questions on our(2002/04/30 11:04)
gigix对shalloway说: Have you ever read this book : The Joy of Patterns (by Brandon Goldfedder)?(2002/04/30 11:05)
shalloway对大家说: book web-site: www.netobjectives.com/dpexplained(2002/04/30 11:05)
tj_dns进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:05)
shalloway对大家说: agilemind: i understand what you mean now.(2002/04/30 11:05)
shalloway对大家说: Both are trying to accomplish the same thing - allow for variation(2002/04/30 11:05)
shalloway对大家说: of specifics without changing the calling objects.(2002/04/30 11:05)
shalloway对大家说: they just work on a different scale.(2002/04/30 11:05)
nju对大家说: how can we decrease bug discovery time by loose coupled code without good architecture? Should we improve the architecture first?(2002/04/30 11:05)
shalloway对大家说: gigix: I have looked at it (Joy of Patterns) but haven't read it too closely.(2002/04/30 11:06)
shalloway对大家说: I am not impressed with it from what I have seen.(2002/04/30 11:06)
pplove.shao对大家说: to shalloway : can you tell me some useful patterns for or-mapping?(2002/04/30 11:06)
shalloway对大家说: Fowler's refactoring book is quite good.(2002/04/30 11:06)
shalloway对大家说: Also, coplien's multiparadigm design for C++ is good. Read the first half(2002/04/30 11:06)
^0^-C++进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:06)
homerlu进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:06)
shalloway对大家说: even if you are a java programmer as it is language independent.(2002/04/30 11:06)
gigix对shalloway说: Agree!(2002/04/30 11:06)
agilemind对shalloway说: Thanks(2002/04/30 11:07)
shalloway对大家说: You can get that one online - check out my web-site for it under resources/books(2002/04/30 11:07)
cber对大家说: agree(2002/04/30 11:07)
shalloway对大家说: I think good architecture can be achieved to some extent up-front if you(2002/04/30 11:07)
homerlu对大家说: Hello,Every one!(2002/04/30 11:07)
shalloway对大家说: know a lot about the problem domain. however, there is the problme of over-engineering(2002/04/30 11:08)
江湖飘进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:08)
shalloway对大家说: emergent design surprisingly goes a long way. We are currently writing a book on this.(2002/04/30 11:08)
xlp223对大家说: i have downloaded your book's sample chapter,and i read it.one of your viewpoint is to master the principles and strategies could be used to "derive" several patterns.(2002/04/30 11:08)
szgirl进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:08)
gigix对shalloway说: How do you think about the relationship between patterns and refactoring?(2002/04/30 11:08)
xlp223对大家说: i don't know the "derive"(2002/04/30 11:08)
kt133进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:08)
kt133对大家说: How can we deal with the business Flow in the office assistant System by using the Design Patten?(2002/04/30 11:08)
shalloway对大家说: pplove.shao: i can't tell you, but i can tell you where to look.(2002/04/30 11:08)
shalloway对大家说: Scott AMbler has done the most work here, but it still isn't complete. Check him out(2002/04/30 11:09)
shalloway对大家说: at www.ronin-intl.com (i think that's right). However, he's pretty well known so yahoo should be able to find him.(2002/04/30 11:09)
shalloway对大家说: derive means to take a base class and in java extend it.(2002/04/30 11:10)
shalloway对大家说: in c++ it'd be classname : classname(2002/04/30 11:10)
liubj进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:10)
yinhj离开了聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:10)
shalloway对大家说: where the first classname is the class deriving from the other one.(2002/04/30 11:10)
szgirl对大家说: hi(2002/04/30 11:10)
liubj进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:10)
mj.cai进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:10)
shalloway对大家说: kt133: sorry don't understand your question. please expand on it.(2002/04/30 11:10)
liubj进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:10)
shalloway对大家说: back to the question about kerievsky(2002/04/30 11:10)
pplove.shao对大家说: to shalloway : thanks a lot, I am going to find him out(2002/04/30 11:11)
shalloway对大家说: patterns only bring on over-engineering if you are using them wrong.(2002/04/30 11:11)
xlp223对大家说: it is meaned the other patterns except basic 23 patterns(2002/04/30 11:11)
shalloway对大家说: many (most even) people use them wrong.(2002/04/30 11:11)
Charity_Zhou进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:11)
Charity_Zhou对shalloway说: how to control the depth of the inheritence? especially O/R mapping?(2002/04/30 11:11)
shalloway对大家说: However, as I've said a few times - patterns are more about the relationships between the things in(2002/04/30 11:11)
raofuhua进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:11)
shalloway对大家说: our problem domain. Taking advantage of past experience of relationships(2002/04/30 11:11)
shalloway对大家说: we've seen before _can't_ hurt us unless we assume something that isn't htere.(2002/04/30 11:11)
kt133对大家说: In the OA(Office Assistante System),the important document must be audit,(2002/04/30 11:13)
kt133对大家说: but the auditors are not only one persion(2002/04/30 11:13)
liu9527进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:13)
shalloway对大家说: charity_zhou: you control the depth of the inheritance hierarchy by(2002/04/30 11:13)
kt133对大家说: so I have to mask their squence.(2002/04/30 11:14)
crystal_y对shalloway说: a lot of domain knowledge --> attempting up-front design --> possible over-engineering,(2002/04/30 11:14)
crystal_y对shalloway说: then what is the stop point ? what the "know when to stop" requires ?(2002/04/30 11:14)
shalloway对大家说: not using inheritance to handle variations of an object except for one thing(2002/04/30 11:14)
cber离开了聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:14)
shalloway对大家说: This means, if you have an inheritance hierarchy and something new starts to vary(2002/04/30 11:14)
crystal_y对shalloway说: experience ? more domain knowledge ? more computer science knowledge ?(2002/04/30 11:14)
shalloway对大家说: you need to make a new interface that represents the concept of the thing(2002/04/30 11:14)
shalloway对大家说: that is varying and then make two (or as many as you need) implementations of this concept.(2002/04/30 11:15)
zergo进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:15)
nju进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:15)
windliu进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:15)
shalloway对大家说: A reference to the new interface is how you talk to these variations (without knowing exactly which one you have0(2002/04/30 11:15)
shalloway对大家说: this requires a factory.(2002/04/30 11:15)
shalloway对大家说: this is what gamma et.al. mean when they say:(2002/04/30 11:15)
shalloway对大家说: design to interfaces(2002/04/30 11:15)
shalloway对大家说: favor object composition over class inheritance.(2002/04/30 11:16)
shalloway对大家说: crystal_y: when designing up front, only design to the level of the concepts present(2002/04/30 11:16)
shalloway对大家说: in your problem domain. don't worry about particular ways of doing things at first(2002/04/30 11:16)
Charity_Zhou对shalloway说: thanks,but in some langauges,interface is not supported,such as PB(2002/04/30 11:16)
shalloway对大家说: except to discover risk issues.(2002/04/30 11:16)
shalloway对大家说: agile methods force this on you somewhat because you have(2002/04/30 11:17)
shalloway对大家说: to implement a set amount of function in a limited amount of time(2002/04/30 11:17)
shalloway对大家说: PB?(2002/04/30 11:17)
cornflower进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:17)
shalloway对大家说: i don't mean interface literally. Abstract classes are fine.(2002/04/30 11:17)
shalloway对大家说: kt133: i am still not sure I totally understand the issues, but maybe consider(2002/04/30 11:18)
gengsing进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:18)
shalloway对大家说: having an auditor class that can have different implementations.(2002/04/30 11:18)
agilemind对shalloway说: Can u tell me the most efficient way(any pattern) to map the analysis model to design model?thanks:)(2002/04/30 11:18)
lilianou进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:18)
crystal_y进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:18)
crystal_y进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:20)
gigix对shalloway说: I feel that abstract class means "is-a", interface means "is-implemented-with", right?(2002/04/30 11:20)
shalloway对大家说: agilemind: actually, if you use commonality/variability analysis, the analysis(2002/04/30 11:20)
shalloway对大家说: model and the design model are very similar. at least(2002/04/30 11:21)
homerlu离开了聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:21)
kt133进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:21)
shalloway对大家说: they start in the same place. that is, they are both(2002/04/30 11:21)
shalloway对大家说: concerned with the same concepts and variations on those concepts(2002/04/30 11:21)
lilaca进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:21)
chenybin进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:21)
wyse对大家说: .(2002/04/30 11:21)
shalloway对大家说: gigix:(2002/04/30 11:21)
ginn进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:21)
shalloway对大家说: that's a valid way of looking at it. However, i think the difference is more about(2002/04/30 11:22)
shalloway对大家说: with an abstract class you have the possibility of default behaviors.(2002/04/30 11:22)
cornflower离开了聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:22)
cajan2进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:22)
shalloway对大家说: in both cases, you want to use the "is-a" and "is-implemented-with" relationships(2002/04/30 11:22)
shalloway对大家说: as a way to handle _one_ variation.(2002/04/30 11:22)
sunwangme进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:22)
shalloway对大家说: If you have objecdts that are changing in many ways, then they(2002/04/30 11:22)
shalloway对大家说: should contain references to many different interfaces/abstract classes(2002/04/30 11:23)
shalloway对大家说: i think i am caught up now.(2002/04/30 11:23)
shalloway对大家说: if i haven't answered a question, please re-ask it.(2002/04/30 11:23)
agilemind对shalloway说: Can u tell me the most efficient way(any pattern) to map the analysis model to design model?thanks:)(2002/04/30 11:23)
no24进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:24)
Charity_Zhou对shalloway说: how about u think of the book "software reuse",writting by Jacobson?(2002/04/30 11:24)
xlp223对大家说: can you tell me how to apply design patterns to the design process?(2002/04/30 11:24)
shalloway对大家说: see my comment starting at 11:20(2002/04/30 11:24)
wyse对大家说: ?(2002/04/30 11:24)
重粒子进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:24)
wyse对大家说: what's wrong?(2002/04/30 11:24)
crystal_y对大家说: domain knowledge help us understand problem clear, pattern...etc help us understand problem abstractly(2002/04/30 11:24)
shalloway对大家说: did that not help?(2002/04/30 11:24)
javaw进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:24)
wyse对大家说: ??????(2002/04/30 11:24)
shalloway对大家说: i haven't read jacobson's book.(2002/04/30 11:25)
crystal_y对大家说: agile practices help us get feedback quickly to improve our understanding(2002/04/30 11:25)
crystal_y对大家说: is that right ?(2002/04/30 11:25)
shalloway对大家说: crystal_y: actually, a pattern tells us about a problem from the angle of analysis design and implementation.(2002/04/30 11:25)
shalloway对大家说: in other words, in analysis, i might find out that i have different kinds of documents that require support from different kinds of printers(2002/04/30 11:25)
shalloway对大家说: so i see that i have text, graphs, etc.(2002/04/30 11:26)
shalloway对大家说: using laser printers, plotters, dot matrix, etc.(2002/04/30 11:26)
shalloway对大家说: it should occur to me that this is what a bridge pattern is about.(2002/04/30 11:26)
liubj离开了聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:26)
javaw对大家说: I realize I have missed such a good chance to discuss patterns.(2002/04/30 11:26)
shalloway对大家说: so i can define my problem domain in terms of an abstraction (different document types)(2002/04/30 11:26)
shalloway对大家说: with different implementations (dot matrix, plotters, etc).(2002/04/30 11:26)
shalloway对大家说: i don't have to worry about how to implement this yet, but i know i know how to when i need to.(2002/04/30 11:27)
yhufo进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:27)
shalloway对大家说: crystal_y - yes, that's the most important part of it.(2002/04/30 11:27)
Charity_Zhou对shalloway说: according to your example,why not use the factory pattern?(2002/04/30 11:27)
shalloway对大家说: having to get feedback quickly causes you to do many things that impact your proces.(2002/04/30 11:27)
shalloway对大家说: in other words, you can no longer wait for full requirements(2002/04/30 11:27)
shalloway对大家说: you can't wait to completely design the system(2002/04/30 11:27)
shalloway对大家说: you can't code it all before testing it.(2002/04/30 11:27)
shalloway对大家说: charity_zhou : actually, factories are essential in OR mapping.(2002/04/30 11:28)
网子愚进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:28)
shalloway对大家说: however, that's a pretty coarse answer.(2002/04/30 11:28)
shalloway对大家说: I will say that the "factories" in OR mapping have to go both ways.(2002/04/30 11:28)
szm#zyy进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:28)
shalloway对大家说: That is, we use them to extract objects from our database, but we also(2002/04/30 11:28)
shalloway对大家说: have to use them to put them in.(2002/04/30 11:28)
tj_dns进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:29)
shalloway对大家说: Can some of you give me some feedback here?(2002/04/30 11:29)
shalloway对大家说: Have my answers been too conceptual?(2002/04/30 11:29)
wyse进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:29)
shalloway对大家说: have they helped?(2002/04/30 11:29)
tj_dns进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:29)
tj_dns进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:29)
Charity_Zhou对shalloway说: yes,i used Factory Pattern writing with PB to support differnce tables with the same business type(2002/04/30 11:30)
xlp223对大家说: a little too conceptual.(2002/04/30 11:30)
banq进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:30)
lilaca对大家说: yes it is very helpful(2002/04/30 11:30)
shalloway对大家说: xlp223: thanks. any particular question?(2002/04/30 11:30)
cajan2对大家说: Can you tell me how to apply pattern in real-time system?(2002/04/30 11:30)
shalloway对大家说: it's hard to know how much detail to give.(2002/04/30 11:30)
zergo对大家说: hi shalloway(2002/04/30 11:30)
shalloway对大家说: if any of you want to get more detailed answers, please use my discussion(2002/04/30 11:31)
shalloway对大家说: group at www.netobjectives.com/dpexplained.(2002/04/30 11:31)
shalloway对大家说: i don't have a lot of real-time system experience. However, the best(2002/04/30 11:31)
outmyth进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:31)
zergo对大家说: can you tell me some rule of design object?(2002/04/30 11:31)
shalloway对大家说: patterns book on the subject is Pattern Oriented Software Architecture Volume 2 by Schmidt(2002/04/30 11:31)
agilemind进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:31)
agilemind对shalloway说: Can u tell me the efficient way(any patterns) to map the analysis model to design model?thanks:)(2002/04/30 11:31)
tj_dns进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:31)
shalloway对大家说: zergoL(2002/04/30 11:32)
banq对shalloway说: how many patterns is there in EJB?(2002/04/30 11:32)
shalloway对大家说: zergo:(2002/04/30 11:32)
shalloway对大家说: zergo: objects are things with responsibilities(2002/04/30 11:32)
shalloway对大家说: they are responsible for themselves.(2002/04/30 11:32)
banq对shalloway说: do u know how many patterns is there in EJB?(2002/04/30 11:32)
yhufo对shalloway说: Can you tell me How to implement pattern in database application(2002/04/30 11:32)
shalloway对大家说: you talk to them through their interfaces. don't worry about how they do what they do.(2002/04/30 11:32)
banq对shalloway说: do u know how many patterns is there in EJB?(2002/04/30 11:32)
banq对shalloway说: do u know how many patterns is there in EJB?(2002/04/30 11:33)
wyse对大家说: .(2002/04/30 11:33)
shalloway对大家说: there is a good book on ejb patterns:(2002/04/30 11:33)
shalloway对大家说: EJB Design Patterns: Advanced Patterns, process and idioms(2002/04/30 11:33)
shalloway对大家说: unfortunately (for you) it is also only in english(2002/04/30 11:34)
yhufo对shalloway说: It is hard to design class interface, can you tell me some tips design the interface.(2002/04/30 11:34)
deranl进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:34)
banq对大家说: url?(2002/04/30 11:34)
cajan2对大家说: thanks, perhaps it is a problem to get this pattern book in real-time system at China(2002/04/30 11:34)
shalloway对大家说: ejbs are useful because they allow us to put a particular function in(2002/04/30 11:34)
banq对shalloway说: url?(2002/04/30 11:34)
shalloway对大家说: an object and then not worry about how that object exists or persists itself(2002/04/30 11:34)
banq对shalloway说: url?(2002/04/30 11:34)
loulan2000进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:35)
shalloway对大家说: in many ways, these are good lessons to learn in non-ejb applications.(2002/04/30 11:35)
cxq2003进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:35)
javaw对shalloway说: I am late here. Can you elaborate on Agile patterns? Thanx.(2002/04/30 11:35)
hanklee_li进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:35)
shalloway对大家说: yhufo: when designing an interface, it is important to think not just of the cases you have in hand, but also other variations you have.(2002/04/30 11:35)
gigix对大家说: Here's a Chinese book: J2EE Core Patterns(2002/04/30 11:35)
shalloway对大家说: however, to stay agile, while you can consider the other cases, don't expand the interface beyond what you need now.(2002/04/30 11:35)
sunwangme进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:35)
shalloway对大家说: sometimes, however, by looking at future needs you can come up with a more(2002/04/30 11:36)
shalloway对大家说: generalized solution that is still easy to understand.(2002/04/30 11:36)
xlp223对大家说: you have said the advantage of patterns,i want to know you think what flaw about design patterns.(2002/04/30 11:36)
zergo对大家说: i think the edge of the object is difficult to decide(2002/04/30 11:36)
raofuhua进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:36)
raofuhua对大家说: kk(2002/04/30 11:36)
shalloway对大家说: the flaw of design patterns is the word design.(2002/04/30 11:36)
wyse进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:36)
zhjtan进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:37)
shalloway对大家说: with other things.(2002/04/30 11:37)
no24进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:37)
javaw对umlchina说: Is it too late for shalloway. We shouldnt exhaust him.(2002/04/30 11:37)
shalloway对大家说: They are also about what is happening in analysis that makes me think(2002/04/30 11:37)
agilemind对shalloway说: sorry,Can u tell me the most efficient way(any patterns) to map the analysis model to design model?thanks:)(2002/04/30 11:37)
shalloway对大家说: i have the need for such a design.(2002/04/30 11:37)
agilemind进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:45)
outmyth进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:45)
banq进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:45)
qfkfw进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:45)
outmyth进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:45)
cajan2进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:45)
邑水寒进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:45)
leohoo进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:46)
网子愚进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:47)
szgirl进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:47)
szgirl对大家说: h(2002/04/30 11:47)
网子愚进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:48)
zergo离开了聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:48)
zty77进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:48)
shalloway进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:48)
umlchina进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:48)
wwwb进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:48)
szgirl对大家说: 看云，吐烟圈；吐烟圈，看云(2002/04/30 11:48)
shalloway对大家说: i'm back - got disconnected.(2002/04/30 11:49)
gigix对shalloway说: Sigh...(2002/04/30 11:49)
54xx进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:49)
shalloway对大家说: it's kind of late now anyway.(2002/04/30 11:49)
shalloway对大家说: however, i am going to be back again when the book comes out.(2002/04/30 11:49)
agilemind进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:49)
shalloway对大家说: oh, faults of patterns i will answer that before i go.(2002/04/30 11:49)
shalloway对大家说: one thing i wanted to mention, however, is that I am doing these(2002/04/30 11:49)
zergo进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:49)
shalloway对大家说: web-casts not only to promote the book but because of the possibility of(2002/04/30 11:49)
shalloway对大家说: my coming out to China to do courses.(2002/04/30 11:50)
poorjim进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:50)
gigix对shalloway说: Welcome to China!(2002/04/30 11:50)
shalloway对大家说: I am somewhat dependent on finding someone out there to help me set(2002/04/30 11:50)
shalloway对大家说: things up.(2002/04/30 11:50)
shalloway对大家说: if you are interested in this, please contact me off-line at alshall@netobjectives.com(2002/04/30 11:50)
shalloway对大家说: now, about the faults of patterns.(2002/04/30 11:50)
shalloway对大家说: i think the biggest problem is the word "design"(2002/04/30 11:50)
alink进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:50)
kjxou进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:50)
shalloway对大家说: it makes one think that pattersn are really about design.(2002/04/30 11:50)
idlecrook进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:51)
shalloway对大家说: they are not limited to design. then name comes from gamma's original work about find reusable designs.(2002/04/30 11:51)
shalloway对大家说: however, patterns, when properly understood relate just as much to analysis as they do to design(2002/04/30 11:51)
shalloway对大家说: as well as to implementations.(2002/04/30 11:51)
heminhu进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:51)
icphand进入聊天室.(2002/04/30 11:51)
shalloway对大家说: I'm going to call it a night now.(2002/04/30 11:51)
shalloway对大家说: I have really enjoyed this. I look forward to doing this again in another couple of months.(2002/04/30 11:52)
cajan2对大家说: Mr. shallowway,it's nice to meet you.See you next time(2002/04/30 11:52)
shalloway对大家说: Bye everyone. Gigix, thanks for keeping things going. Jiayu, thanks for setting this up.(2002/04/30 11:52)
shalloway对大家说: cajan2: thanks for participating.(2002/04/30 11:52)
zergo对大家说: thanks shalloway(2002/04/30 11:52)
gigix对shalloway说: Good night!(2002/04/30 11:52)
shalloway对大家说: zergo: thanks(2002/04/30 11:52)
shalloway对大家说: good night all.(2002/04/30 11:52)
heminhu对大家说: good night(2002/04/30 11:52)
shalloway对大家说: i'm logging off now.(2002/04/30 11:52)
umlchina对大家说: 谢谢大家参与，今天网络不太好，实在抱歉((2002/04/30 11:55)